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[Jamie]
Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. Today we're chatting to Pav Singh, an FA coach development officer, to discover his journey so far and to hear his insight into creating an inclusive environment for people in football. Well hi Pav, welcome to the show, how are you?
[Pav]
I'm good Jamie, thanks for having me.
[Jamie]
It's a pleasure to have you on.
[Louise]
Yeah it's really nice to have you here with us. What we usually do is start off by finding a little bit more about what you do and what your role is. Can you tell us a bit about that?
[Pav]
Yeah certainly Louise, yeah. As Jamie mentioned I'm the Regional Coach Development Officer for the North East Yorkshire area and it's working with obviously the grassroots game, developing coaches and some of the work we do around developing coaches, a lot of CPD with the County of Fays, getting out to clubs and working with the coaches through the qualifications but most importantly the role has a D&I arm to it as well around diversity and inclusion. So you know reaching out to the underrepresented groups and making sure we work in them sort of domains of recruit, deploy, support, develop which we do well and it's a really good role. I'm blessed to be fair, full-time with the FA, my ninth year, but the most important thing is just love developing people, developing coaches just to make our players better. But it's really good, North East Yorkshire and I've had some long journeys, been near Scotland sometimes and then obviously I live in Leeds so West Riding is one of my county affairs as well but work across West Ryden county, Durham, Northumberland, East Ryden, North Ryden. It's really good, some really good people and some real inspirational communities and coaches out there.
[Jamie]
Yeah, fantastic. Brilliant. Well, just before we kind of dive in to discover more about yourself and your experiences. As this is a coaching podcast, coaches could be on the way to training while they're tuning into this so we kind of like to give them some good advice at the top of the show.
[Louise]
Yeah so we call this the arrival activity and what we're gonna do is we're gonna give you 30 seconds to come up with as many top coaching tips as you can. Are you up for that?
[Pav]
Yeah, always yeah.
[Louise]
Okay, alright well when you hear the music start you can begin.
[Pav]
Right let's go. Okay, top tips for coaches. I'll try to break that down quite quickly. Self game coaching and the game. Self, be yourself. You can't be anybody else because that place is taken. Be authentic, always have a plan whenever you're going to work with coaches. Get a mentor, really important. Someone's got a bit of skin in the game who can help you. And manage your own biases as well and don't be too judgmental of players. But most importantly, give them the best experience.
[Jamie]
Oh, brilliant. Yeah, thank you very much for that, Pav. Some really good tips there. Well, we'll dive in with the main part of the show, which is to find out all about you and your experiences and we start this section off by asking a guest what was your first experience of football like?
[Pav]
Wow, going back a few years now, my first experience was and I'll probably show my age here now, was it was on a gravel pitch and it was in Bradford, that was where I was born and raised. And me dad used to take me and my sisters down there, there used to be a BMX track there. My dad used to always do laps, he was a bit of a fitness freak. And he used to take me and my sisters down there and in those days, I was probably about, I don't know, probably seven, seven, eight. And it was a size five football by the way, a size football it wasn't none of these mini footballs and all I do is play football on the gravel pitch with my sisters and when my dad did the laps and then the experience was great because it was just a big full-size gravel pitch and it was now if you look at that area now it's a 3G pitch so we're going back a lot of years so my first bit was just good it was just about freedom just go play but the most importantly it was accessible, so it was just open, you know where you go places no ball games, you know, and it was just open and believe it or not, forget Playstations, forget all that kind of stuff, it's amazing, We ended up playing a 15 versus 15 a side game because all the kids just Gravitated towards the ball. It was the ball what it gravitated and brought everyone together So it was just chaos, but yeah, and it just built from there I started going down on my own at seven years old. It was only about 300 yards from where I lived. So yeah that was my first experience. Open space, size 5 football, playing with kids who were probably 16, 17, 18, 9, 10 and a mixture of boys and girls. Fantastic experience.
[Louise]
Yeah, it's a little bit of chaos when you're playing. It's always good fun, isn't it? When did your interest in coaching start and how did you get involved in that?
[Pav]
It just started from college really, because what happened was when I was sort of 18, I was at Bradford City, but I was on a contract where I was still sort of going to sixth form and trying to get an education as well. And I brought my leg at sort of at Bradford City and then I thought I need to sort of develop a bit of a career. And I started sort of doing this sort of the qualification attached to a GMBQ qualification and I fell in love with that I was still trying to get back to playing as well but where I was really pushed was the assistant manager, Mick Innegan had a good time when I was there when I did come back eventually and started playing around the non-league game, the semi-pro game, and he said to me, you need to go do your qualification, you'd go far in the game, and that was a little push as well. So there was, it was twofold really, you know, you look at the percentages of, I wanted to be a footballer, but I'm not. That's it. I wanted to be a footballer. Education wasn't a priority for me, even though my dad said, no, you need to do that. My dad's advice was always, they'll take your football away from you, but they can't take your education away from you. That was his sort of a quote.
[Jamie]
What was that first experience of coaching like then for you?
[Pav]
It was amazing because I finished my level two, but then when I went to do me assessment and I passed, I connected with a coach on the course. And this is why these, when you get coaches together, you know, committees of practice, coaches, it's brilliant because it's just networking and they end up working for each other. It was a particular coach called Steve Wilson, he says I've set up a heat in United Juniors, you know, he says do you fancy doing some coaching for me as well and he invited me on a Saturday morning and just went down so every Saturday just started coaching local kids and it was a fantastic experience And that's where I really got the real appetite, the grassroots, you know, real grassroots, end of the spectrum. The experience was good because you go in there and it was just fun, just fun. I don't think there was much coaching going on. You know what I mean? I think it was just facilitating and you're just putting games on, you know? And then we look at the play phase down we look at small-sided games and and I don't think we were a bit ahead of our time and I just because of the freedom I had when I played on that gravel pitch I'd go there for an hour just put me to little games you know And I suppose when you go on courses sometimes, knowledge is power, then you think, right, I need to do this, I need to do that. But I just let them have fun. But the experience was good. But the parents, because what you realize is the parents, they're dropping their kids off. They want their kids to have a positive experience. And one thing I'm big on is ensuring that once you become a coach you've got a real responsibility you know and once you've signed up to it because you can have an impact not just as players but them just as young people you know just in terms of how they become a better version of themselves and and how do they sort of navigate and become better learners as well. So yeah we have a massive impact and that's where it starts at Grassroots.
[Louise]
And would you say that your playing experiences that you'd had up until then influenced your coaching approach? You've mentioned that obviously playing on the gravel pitch and what have you influenced some of it and wanted to play small-sided games. Did it influence in any other way?
[Pav]
Yeah, I think sometimes as players, when you're playing, what you learn from the coaches who are sort of coaching you at time. And this is the sort of the self-awareness piece and age appropriate stuff and delivering. Because you don't know any better, you're always pinching recipes. Or so if Mick's delivered a particular session like that, or one of my coaches at Farser, wherever I played. But what you do, you try something, and what you do as a player, as an adult, and you're trying it with kids, but it's a start because you're trying something. And then it's from there, then having the mentors around you. Don't quite think that's gonna work that because you've run an hour session You've stopped it about 30 times. So they've only had about 20 minutes of playing There's that where you use what you've been coached and you do that until you start then going to qualifications Go to communities of practice being around people. So look, this is another way to maybe try work with a seven year old, eight year old, yeah.
[Jamie]
What do you enjoy most about coaching?
[Pav]
It's a spiritual place for me. If it's either being on the grass with coaches and mentoring them or being with players, it just takes me away from everything. You can be yourself, but when you see the faces of the players or even the coaches you're doing something on the side with, when you see the faces and they're sort of so ingrained in what you're saying and that for me is so powerful and it's quite spiritual. It's a massive release for me and that's why we're fortunate enough as well to get on the grass as well and we need that as coach development officers, coach developers, being able to keep up with the modern trends of the game, keep up with what it's like real life on the grass and yeah massively just I would say a spiritual place where I forget about everything and that's it it's me and either the players or the coaches with me.
[Jamie]
Can you kind of give us a bit of a brief insight into, you've hinted a little bit at it so far, but can you give us a brief insight into what your journey's been like from you first starting out to the role you've had today and maybe any challenges that you've faced along the way?
[Pav]
Yeah, the journey hasn't been smooth, there's been a lot of speed bumps on the way. People talk about It's the journey, it's not the destination. But we have to have a purpose in terms of where we want to be. I'm like that as well. But the journey for me in terms of, I've had so many experiences across the grassroots, the talent and the senior game. And it was interesting at the last CPD at West Raleigh County, a very good mentor, my good friend, my other never seen works at Bradford City. He came up to me and said, you've got a real bandwidth of experiences now, grassroots, talent, senior game, Jeremy. And what that's actually let me do is, cause people say, well, how can you maintain the quality of just doing one thing? But I think with myself I like to just be immersed into so many different things because it makes me the best version of myself when I have to get to a certain point as well. But the journey is quite simply been I've gone from a coach, I've been a lecturer, I've lectured on degree programmes. So I've been in that academia world as well. I've been a sports development manager, you know, I've managed sports development officers. I've run a sports development unit at the Bradford Council. I've worked in the County Fair, West Riding, as a football development officer. And then, you know, I've had so many different experiences and hopefully I look quite good for my age. But those experiences, it's trying to sort of make me the best version of myself. And then obviously I've had always had part-time roles in academies, Legend High, Bradford City, I've worked in the semi-pro game. And it's interesting, I always take something away from it. Does that make sense? What's going to make me so good at what I am as a coach developer. You know, if you take the knowledge of a chair, yeah. Right. If you, The seat I'm sitting on here now, that's the FA, the full-time. But you know the legs, the different experience I was, what keeps me on that chair and keeps me up. And then obviously nine years in the FA, as a county coach developer as well, you know, and people talk about what's been the real good bits but bits that you know you talk about your own mental health, your well-being and you talk about overthinking things and thinking right. In order to get to a certain destination I say to all coaches anybody who wants to sort of drive to be the best you have to make sacrifices. I've got a really understanding wife you know I've got two beautiful kids as well. Parents play a big role in terms of the sacrifice, the commitment I've given to the FA or all these other bits I've done. But the most important thing is as well is we all come to this earth, yeah, this planet, right, to be the best version of ourselves. And as a proud Sikh, Sikh man as well, there's a big thing around Sikhs and around selfless service, and we call it Seva. Do you know what I mean? I'll always serve communities, I'll always serve people, do you know what I mean? And be the best I can be. But in terms of the journey, the sort of struggles have been sometimes not getting something what you want, but that's just life. I think what I've learned from the struggles is being patient and sometimes control the controllables. Okay. There's certain things what you can't influence, which, you know, we have worked in the grassroots, I've been across the pro game as well. And the real struggles I've been is, how can you be disciplined to be consistent all the time? You know, people talk about consistency, okay? And one thing I'm working on, how can I be disciplined to be consistent? I was really good at doing the big moments ***, you know, I could do that Well do that well But what I've done the last four years with the help a lot of good mentors within the FA as well a lot of good People, you know like Julie chip chase and the foster people like Butch Fazal Steve Smith He's I've surrounded myself with good people as well who will make you become the best you can be as well. But when you're struggling and you're not getting it right, it's important to have the right people around you, the advocates.
[Louise]
You mentioned that you are Sikh and that's potentially brought some challenges to you. Do you think you've come across any opportunities? Because I know you've worked with a lot of South Asian coaches and stuff, and I think I've heard people talk about how you've influenced them as you've gone on. So do you think there's opportunities that have come about because of that? It's not all challenging.
[Pav]
Yeah, I think I'm just trying to look into the question there in terms of being South Asian and we get a lot of stuff thrown out because we live in this space now, this thing around, you know, like diversity, inclusion, EDI And, you know, I've been around Diversity Inclusion all my life. And I've done campaigns back in the day as a young trailblazer. I think Diversity Inclusion, I actually prefer a word called center belonging because you need to belong as well. You need to belong. I look at it the other way and we always go, right, we need a diverse workforce, yeah, but the inclusion piece is the most important piece for me. Is coaches in that space now, yeah, there's a real opportunity out there as well, But we also need to be able to grab it with both hands as well. Okay. You know, we lived in a culture of it's all about qualifications. And I think some communities haven't moved on yet because it is about qualifications. And then we've gone from, but they've got to build the body of work. Does that make sense? And it's working because, you know, we've got the D&I officers who are out there as well. But what I would like to see is not rush. And it's like a rat race. Everybody wants to get to the top. Everybody wants to get the airlines. Everyone wants to get that, but patience, build your body work, build your body work. But the other thing is as well is these coaches within the communities it's important they get the exposure, the education where they can go back in the communities and empower and inspire their communities as well. Okay that's really important because that's what it's about as well. It's not necessary right I'm gonna go work in a pro game or a semi-pro game. We need to give them affordances, the experiences, the exposure of being the best version of ourselves and going back to the communities and inspiring another generation.
[Louise]
That helps the kind of cycle of bringing more people in.
[Pav]
It's that conveyor belt and we talk about role modelling and that's why and it's important because we've got some fantastic role models across the FA space now. So there's that visibility in there, do you know what I mean? The female space and the D&I space and you know back in my day you know, I didn't see that. I didn't see that but I had to navigate through it. I had good people around me as well. But you're right, this isn't about us climbing the ladder of qualifications or working here, because it's a tough gig out there. It's so competitive, you know, the game, but empowering either it's the black community, the South Asian community or the Chinese community or even the female community, I know we'll touch on that later on as well. Let's help them to help that generation. And believe it or not, there's some fantastic stuff we've done like in West Riding where we flipped it the other way where we've done coach development groups where it's at an inner city club but they've opened the doors to all the clubs so you've got a real mix of different cultures and different people coming together.
[Louise]
I think part of it's not gatekeeping information and kind of stopping people from coming through. It's like opening things up a bit.
[Pav]
And that word gatekeeper is, we are like the gatekeepers, aren't we? And we call it that entry to the house. And I do think as well, the more sort of lens we have on sort of cognitive diversity and within certain decision-making boards, you know, it does help. It's another sort of lens, which is important. But, you know, we talk about allyship and advocating. We've got Lee Brown and Matt Jones who work in the D&I team. And I've been the minority within the majority in some of the industries I've worked in. I've been a minority. So when I looked at it from their angle, in terms of they're in the space of diversity and inclusion now. And the way they've sort of embraced the journey and become advocates is phenomenal, you know, and now holistically how they're, and they do it anyway, cause they good coach developers. It's about integration, not isolation, but also we must try to do some bespoke targeted work as well to upskill and give them that as well. You know, because when you look at England in terms of the population and the different groups out there, it's phenomenal.
[Jamie]
Do you have any advice for people who's wanting to start their journey or even for people just kind of be a great ally at all?
[Pav]
My advice would always be, and Steve Smith has just talked about it a lot, and you know he's the first black CEO in the Coway phase, Listen to understand, not to reply. You know, that's the most important thing. So I think that's the most important thing in how much do we actually listen and you know I've done it, I've had to improve on that as well. I'm listening to someone, I'm getting ready to ask the next question I'm not really listening to. So I think listen to the people, either it's players or coaches or volunteers, listen to them. You know, meet their needs because they've got great stories. I think that's the most important thing, giving people space. But the biggest thing is, and we did this on the Advanced Youth Award, and I've always been sort of, I've always loved it, stuff around the self-determination theory about making people feel safe, valued and have purpose. Do you know what I mean? Make them feel safe. You know, make them feel safe. They have to have a voice and value what they say and give them a little bit of purpose as well. But the most important thing is when you're a volunteer, you know, you're not getting paid are you? You've been probably working seven days a week, you know, and try save your battery life. That, what I've advised there, it saves your battery life and it saves your energy. But the most important thing, and this is, I said this to my son, you've got to be obsessed with it. Do you know what I mean? The nittliest things yeah the little brilliant basics be obsessed with it you know and that's what I've always been you know I've been obsessed with coaching you know coach development and I'm an over thinker I'm an over planner you know I mean I go above and beyond and that's where I am. Do you know what I mean? But over the space of time with maturity and self-awareness, I've got a bit better at it. Does that make sense? So I probably took you on a bit of a journey there yourself there Jamie as well, but going back to it, make them feel safe, make them feel valued, have purpose and just be yourself.
[Jamie]
Yes really important points there, really important.
[Louise]
And you mentioned before about it's important for coaches to go back into their community and bring other people in. From your experiences what things could everyone do to encourage more people into the game?
[Pav]
The biggest thing we did when the rules came out for diverse inclusion as well was a lot of communities and let's be honest as well, I think they were sort of disenfranchised and they were disengaged and we had the pandemic as well, remember that had a lot of impact on stuff as well. And I think what we did was, and I've always said this is go into the backyard, be visible, that's really important, yeah. And we used to have, we used to call it visibility, presence and availability. Yep. Because believe it or not, these communities moved on, they move on and we shouldn't underestimate the communities in terms of the power they have and the expertise and the skills they have. Okay. I've been part of a club where we haven't needed a mainstream, we'll just *** on and get on with it. That's what you do, it's survival, isn't it? So I think the biggest thing on there, Louise, was can we be visible and have presence and be available? But you've got to go to the moves and shakers, you know, the real influencers. By the way, there's probably a hundred Pavs in those communities, yeah, who have tried what I've tried to do as well. So there'll be a bit of resentment, do you know what I mean? And once you build those relationships, you connect with them, right? It's unbelievable. I want to do, and you know what it is? It all just boils down to guess what? They just want to make the players better. They want to get better as coaches. It just boils down to that. And I think being a resource like that is quite powerful, but then you got to manage it because once they have Pav, they want a bit more of Pav. By the way, I've got the whole Northeast to look after. I've got others. So then you've got to be cute and clever and how you sort of, you know, you don't spread yourself thin, which we do, but how do you sort of empower them to take ownership? How do you capacity build? How do you get them to take qualifications or want to become coaches or volunteers, you know what I mean? Cause it's daunting. But once you get someone from that community going along the path, like getting a UFC or getting a role here or getting that, it's quite powerful, you know? Cause that gives that community hope as well, that there is an opportunity. Role models are so important. The role models for me are the ones who are at the top end of the spectrum, right? Ronaldo's, your Messi's and you know your Marines all them. I've got these, I call them rail models. The rail models, the ones who are in those communities seven days a week, you know, driving kids on minibuses, you know what I mean, doing all that. But they're the ones, you give them a little bit of knowledge or, you know, they just snap onto it. You know, some of the community practices I've done in clubs and, you know, there's eight of them, eight, nine of them and they just hang on to every word you say as well. But that there as well wearing this is a privilege, this badge, wearing this kit and going in there, you know what I mean? And the visibility piece around me going there trying to do something as well. It gives the young people hope as well, the younger ones hope as well. And that's important, advocating and visit. So visibility, presence and that availability is so important within communities.
[Jamie]
Ultimately, if you can see it, you can be it.
[Pav]
I love that phrase Jamie. And I think we're doing that quite a lot now. See it, you can be it.
[Louise]
You've mentioned a couple of times there about women in the game. Do you have any advice to help women into coaching or kind of strategies that you employ to encourage more women to pursue coaching roles or participate in sports.
[Pav]
Louise, when we had the pandemic and what we did was we set up a female coaches club and it very much came from a coach who I knew because what it was, his daughter played for the football team and the club up there now, it's called Bradford Phoenix, got a massive female set up as well. And it just started as diligently as on teams, safe space, cultural sensitivity as well. And it started off like that with showing a few stuff around, you know, we had to step in on the sidelines and we're trying, but these were playing, but we wanted them to become coaches, volunteers, didn't we? Do you know what I mean? And it's Fakhar Sain, who's the D&IFA mentor for West Riding, cause his daughter was involved. He talks about safe space, safe space, most important thing, and most important about respect and cultural sensitivity, and let them lead on how they wanna do it. And believe it or not, as males, sometimes we'd be quite dominant in a way, and we don't mean to do that sometimes, do you know what I mean? But his strategy was, because they were enjoying the playing, and then it was quite quickly because there's a lot of younger girls who want to play, anybody fancy volunteering? And some of them were up for it, but go back to that, say, make a safe space for them, and what does coaching involve? But you know what it is? When you say coaching to volunteers and you say some they're like no I can't coach it's just facilitated isn't it? So you always say do this do that it's not you're just facilitating a session and letting them enjoy it so I think we need to sort of educate what coaching is you know it's not what we think it is sometimes in terms of, oh, I got to stop this, I got to do this, I got to put this design together. But I think you got to respect the environment, especially, and also you got to build a relationship with the males as well. Play With No Issue had a WhatsApp group just for dads. So when the girls went to play, if they're late, who's getting text? Isha. Or where's my daughter? Does that make sense? So getting the buying from, and that's a cultural sensitivity to part as well. And this is looking when we'll go to the Paxton community, but they're phenomenal Phoenix girls, I've had good girls, they're flying, they're coaching, they're leading, they're phenomenal. So the tips for me would be make it a safe space for them, respect them, that's important, and the other bit, let them have a voice, let them lead as well. And the last bit to that is you need that bit of real model. So we talk about role model. You need that real model within there. Do you know what I mean? And there's so many good female real models within there. They'll drive it. They'll drive it. I call it transformational leadership. Do you know what I mean? You're trying to create a bit of legacy, but what you're doing is you're empowering, inspiring. And let's not underestimate people as in females or people from the community, because there's some real top talent out there. All they need is that little nudge, that bit of education, that bit of exposure, because talent is everywhere. And that's one of the things, you know, we would talk about all the day, I'll talk to my son about it. You know, we talk about hard work beats talent. You know, everyone has these catchy phases as well. I said to him, I worked hard but I did work smart at times as well. So you got to work smart in these communities, okay, you got to get the buy-in. We've got community champions, haven't we, for the FA. The community champions, when we get the right recruitment, they're the ones who'll drive them spaces as well.
[Jamie]
Just going back to something that you'd mentioned a couple of times in that answer part in terms of about the real models. I'm thinking about the listeners here, coaches. What advice do you have for our listeners to inspire almost the next generation to create the safe spaces and an inclusive environment so that we can get real models coming out in communities.
[Pav]
People want something to have a purpose and what it is is giving people sort of purpose and sort of responsibility and letting giving the autonomy to try to build something a project yeah right that's the way to do it you know and as you've seen I have a lot of projects right And the reason why I have a lot of projects, you know, and not just in the FA space, but I need purpose, I need fulfillment, do you know what I mean? Right, if you can give fulfillment and a bit of a purpose to young people or even like volunteers and all that, you know, there's something at the end of the road. I don't know, yeah, okay, I call it vacation, but Hang on a minute, you're building your community here. Do you know what I mean as well? That is most important. So, fulfillment, giving purpose, and giving them the autonomy to own it. That's not easy, it's a skill. It's a skill, because with that it needs resource. It needs funding. And that's the most important thing because a lot of the communities and clubs and tea you don't your own identity your own sort of Values and go back to the club. I thought well, you know, it's one of my sort of Side hustles, you know, we have six key values that drives the club. Yeah, because it's the values those core principles that keep everyone together. You know, we look at togetherness, work ethic, ambition, success, you know what I mean? Resilience. You know, that's where you hang your hat on. And your behaviours and the core set of principles or values, what you call it, is what drives people. You know, I use that a lot in my coaching as well because if I'm going to deliver a session in a little tip for coaches out there, yeah, agree some non-negotiable straight away. You know, I did it at the West Rhineland Coaches Conference and I had some under eights, right? Never worked with them before, right? Got to get a buy in here and I've got 40 coaches watching me. First thing I said to them, when you go to school, what the behaviours, what you got to portray, what are they? They went, oh, you know, respect. Yeah, I went, oh, I'll take that one. Yeah, okay. And then you always get wonky, wonky went perseverance. And I didn't know how to spell it. Do you know what I mean? So, you know, so, so, so can you spell it for me? He said, no, no, you spell it and that. So I said, we'll just go P-E-R, yeah, perseverance, resilience, and I went brilliant. So you know that there, that sort of then was the grounding for our session for an hour. So when there wasn't a bit of respect or that you know they're struggling to do something or something, I just went back to that. So what that does is that for me is the start of the tip for coaches, put that into your coaching, put that into your projects and tell them where you're going with this. Don't get me wrong, they get compromised. Of course they do, they do. But isn't it great to go back to, this is who we are, you know what I mean? They do get compromised, but they also evolve as well. But the other thing about it is, let's not just make statements, but what does perseverance look like for Jamie? What does perseverance look for Louise? What does it look like? Totally different, aren't they? So there has to be that bit as well. What does that mean to, what underpins perseverance as me as an individual, yeah? But what does perseverance look like a group? Does that make sense? Do you know what I mean? So let's just say, has a group, we have to persevere as a group through this Sunday, losing 3-0, under 9s, yeah? They always look at the score, of course they do, kids do, do you know what I mean? But you're going back to that perseverance. We talked about it on the Thursday and we're going to get through it together, okay? We're gonna support each other as well. But yeah, I think that is a real good starter, that as well. But also what you gotta remember is that respect word. You're playing on Sunday and you're a bit like that, you know, coming off to referee, they'll question you. Oh, Pav, respect, yeah. And my body language, well, Pav's not persevering, Do you know what I mean? Yeah, they will pick up stuff like that. But it's a good little bit of something to work with, bring everyone together. Let's go into, Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah,
[Jamie]
no, it's a great first step into creating that environment and just getting the player ownership over that as well. It's, it's fantastic.
[Pav]
The thing with that as well is, right, is then, imagine getting the parents to buy into it as well. That's the next piece as well, because being a volunteer working in grassroots, you're doing what, one, two hours a week, you're working seven days a week, you know, but that bit of that is that code of conduct, what you have, and I get it, I've seen it, you know, sometimes they're not living the values, they're not living that, but it gives you that purpose, again, what we talked about, something what we got to work towards and get better at. But we're not gonna nail them by the way. We're not gonna nail them straight away. That's gonna take time. So there's gonna be a few speed bumps. There's gonna be a few strong conversations. There's gonna be people getting upset within that environment, like you said, Jeremy. But that is our sort of identity and our behaviour, I'd say a core, it's our ethos, what we're going to go with as well. Even better, what I did with it, let them come up with it, you know what I mean, because we're very good at, nah right, these three things, this is what we're doing, they look at it like that, Let them come up with it because they own it.
[Louise]
So we've talked around a lot around kind of communities and stuff and I think you've worked across quite a few different communities haven't you? What would you say are some effective methods for integrating all communities and like inclusive communities, what do you say?
[Pav]
On that Louise, if you think about, you know, we've had Black History Month, South Asian Heritage Month, and when you talk about football tournaments, football events, coaching events, I think that is one way of integrating all communities together. So just from previous work, I remember I was a community cohesion football development officer. Cohesion, integrating all communities, so not just inner city communities, but social, economic, disadvantaged communities, rural areas, urban areas, bringing all that together. And the one way we do it was football. Football was a powerful tool for bringing those together and just play football and yeah that is one way to do it but you're tying with the real community champions around that. That adds a lot of value as well because what we've got to remember is we always think right inner-city communities is full of South Asians or whatever. There's a lot of new communities of interest as well. But there's also a minority in those urban, rural areas. You know, I grew up in Pudsey, you know, and the adventures I went in in football, you know, I call it posh Harrogate, you know, I played there, do you know what I mean, for the first team there, but I also played for the team, a grassroots team, Wigden Moor, where I was the minority as well. So I think what it does bring as well is if you've got a minority in a club that's rural or urban, yeah, then coaches always come across, they say, well, we've got a South Asian or we've got a South Asian girl or we've got a blah. How do we get round this, this, this? Does that make sense? So that piece is sharing best practice, but the real carrot is the tournament, is the CPD event, you know, and that's what I did with the coach development group at Phoenix in the city opened it up, okay, and it brought other community clubs. All it was about was just getting better, seeing some coaching, talking about football, but yeah, that's one way of doing it.
[Jamie]
We've took quite a lot of your time, Pav, and we really, really appreciate the time that you've gone in to talk to us today. I suppose kind of to sum all of this discussion up, what kind of piece of advice would you give to our listeners first of all to help with creating the right environment and creating inclusive communities and secondly a bit of a reflective point you because as Louise said that you've worked across quite a lot of communities and you've you've had vast experience in the game what piece of advice would you kind of give to your younger self to help them into the world of coaching for the first time?
[Pav]
Well my younger self good question that. Patient when I was younger just be a little bit patient. I did want everything and I chased after everything. I chased a dream, so be patient. I think the other thing is be resilient as well, so patient, resilient, resilient and there's a dad once said to me, he said, today's pain is tomorrow's power. That's what he used to say to me when we were a lot of speed bumps in life as well. But the biggest thing, what I would say is, stay true to your values, never stop learning. What you don't know, you don't know. And don't be afraid of what you don't know, right? And go get a mentor, okay? Go get a mentor. And the other thing is always is be open-minded. That's the biggest thing. And I think I'm turning 48 this year. And I think the last four years, I've just been coming to a point of becoming a bit of a better version of myself. But it's took time and I wanna be 48. No, and I've learned from mistakes, surrounding myself around good people, which is really important. But the most important thing, what you got to remember is, when you step onto the grass or you step into a playground or even like gravel pitch we talked about, okay? That is a place where you've got an opportunity to make any young person just fall in love with the game and give them the experience. Because when they come back to you in 10, 15 years time and they say, yo coach, do you remember when you did that game? We really enjoyed it. That is valuable. You know, and I've had a lot of that. I've had a lot of that. When people recall you back to 10, 15, whatever years, because it's what you say they remember and what you do with them, okay? And you can be, you know, the best coach, the most knowledge and all that, but how you make people feel is the most important thing in life. And I think Gandhi talks about that, the power of love, you talk about transformational leadership, love and care is the most important thing for any of us. We all want that arm around our shoulder, okay, which is really important.
[Louise]
Brilliant. If we were to kind of ask you to set a challenge for coaches who've been listening to kind of go ahead with some of the work that you've kind of been doing yourself, what kind of challenge would you set them like to get them have a go at something that might kind of set them on this path?
[Pav]
The challenge I would set to coaches is, can you find out three things about the players you work with or the family, yeah, what you would never, never think of, you know, something, something that can connect you. Three things, go find something out where there might be something different and it don't have to be to do with football because that little piece of, you know, they might have gone on a holiday and they had an experience or something happened there. Go find out. Cause that's that connection piece as well. Do you know what I mean? And that's how you develop rapport and relationships as well. Find something out what you never would imagine. Cause as volunteers, it's got to be going those environments and we think it's always about football and coaching. Okay. It is, but it's also about finding out what makes them tick, how can you connect better and what is it they've done in that probably day or week or month or year is find out up to three things about them and share it, share it with them.
[Jamie]
Yeah, that's a really good challenge, really, really good. And I look forward to people telling us on the community as well how that's gone and maybe sharing their own top tips for building relationships with players as well. Right, well, That is all we've got time for today Pav and we just kind of want to say a massive thank you for coming on to Coachcast. There's some really powerful statements in there, some really good stuff to take away for our listeners. Thank you very much for sharing and telling us about your journey and your experience. Well hopefully you've enjoyed being on.
[Pav]
Yeah brilliant thank you Jamie, Louise.
[Jamie]
Right well that's all we have time for today and that's it for this season of Coachcast but don't forget to check out the description for the transcription of this episode and for all the links to our platforms. There you'll be able to click through to the England Football Community and this is where you can post your coaching questions for us to discuss or just simply to connect with loads of wonderful coaches.
[Louise]
Yep, we'd love to help you out with your coaching questions, so please do check it out. As Jamie says that’s it for now, but don’t worry, we’ll be back with a brand-new season in August. So, if you haven’t already, hit subscribe to make sure you don’t miss an episode. From all of us at England Football Learning, thanks for listening.