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[Jamie]
Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. Today, we're chatting to Phil Shead, an FA youth coach developer, to discover his journey so far and to gain his insight into player development and session design. Well hi Phil, welcome to Coachcast, how are you?
[Phil]
I'm good Jamie, how are you?
[Jamie]
Yeah all good, Thank you very much.
[Louise]
Thanks for joining us today, Phil. It's really good to have you on. Can you tell us a little bit about your role and kind of paint a picture of what it is that you do at the FA?
[Phil]
Yeah, so currently I'm based up in the North East. I'm looking after five clubs up here, supporting coaches who are working on A licence and advanced youth award mainly, but also on youth awards and UEFA B licence. And I guess I'm trying to help become as good as they can at whatever they want to get better at.
[Jamie]
Brilliant. Well, we're talking about helping people be as good as they can. At the start of this, we basically, before we discover more about you and your experiences, as this is a coaching podcast, coaches could be on the way to training right now while tuning into this. So we always like to give them some great advice early on in the episode.
[Louise]
Yeah, we call this your arrival activity. So it warms you up and kind of gets you in the right state of mind for what's going to come. So what we'll do is we'll give you 30 seconds and we'll ask you to give us as many top coaching tips as you can. You up for that?
[Phil]
Absolutely.
[Louise]
So we'll set a little timer up for you. And when the music starts, you can begin. Time starts
[Phil]
now. Great. So I guess my first thing is what informed your session design today and what are the intended outcomes? Are you meeting the players where they are in terms of age and stage of development? And are you prepared to adapt from the plan depending on how they turn up? And who's the session for? And what are you hoping to positively impact and who you hope to positively impact? And also not just considering session design, but coach behaviors, which often get forgotten. And the last bit, because I'm running out of time, is most importantly, are they going to leave with a smile on their face when they come back for
[Jamie]
more? Just in there.
[Phil]
We've had a chunk of that in club, but that 30 seconds flew.
[Louise]
It's amazing how quickly it goes by.
[Jamie]
It is, it flies, it flies. You did well there, thank you for those top tips. Hopefully a lot for the coaches to take away there. Well, thanks for that. We'll move on to kind of the main section of the show and we always start this bit Phil with kind of asking, I guess, what was your first experience of football like?
[Phil]
Yeah, I guess I'll put that into two parts. So one, my first experience of football itself would be Euro 96, sunny day, four-year-old, just had my four-year-old injections in my legs so I can barely move, but I'm outside, it's really sunny. England's gonna be playing on the night. I'm kicking a ball around that would not be allowed now, it's more representative of a netball than a football, and just so excited about watching England playing football and just having fun. I flipped that around to my first experience I remember of playing football, turning up, my dad taking me to a session and crying my eyes out leaving after five minutes and just going home. Not because I didn't love football, just because I hated going to new environments. But thankfully I went back the week after and absolutely loved it. So yeah, you've got that first memory of Euro 96 and then that first memory of turning up to a session.
[Louise]
Lovely. Sounds like it was a really fun memory, apart from the injections anyway.
[Jamie]
You make a good point there in terms of like the new environments. How did you handle that yourself? You said that obviously you went back again, but how as a coach would you handle that with young players?
[Phil]
Yeah, I think, and we're probably going to hear more about this as we go through really, but just understanding that first and foremost, they are people and trying to get to know them. I've got two little boys, but one of them reminds me so much of me as a kid. And the thing that makes him comfortable when he goes to new environments is somebody just trying to get on his wavelength. So whether that's getting down to his height in terms of kneeling down, whether that's finding out a little bit about him, what he likes, trying to remember something important about him, that he's got a brother or his favourite player is Bruno at the moment from Newcastle. So just getting to know that person, find out what's important to them and trying to find some common ground, which whether it's a four year old or whether it's an 18 year old, I think is really, really important. I think once you know people and you get to know people a little bit better, we start to tailor how we help them learn and develop. Yeah, so that stuff's really important for me.
[Louise]
Definitely. So if we talk about your kind of, as you've moved on, I guess, from that first experience, what was your first experience in an academy setting like?
[Phil]
Yeah. So I joined Middlesbrough Football Club at eight year old and again, cried about going. I really didn't want to go. I had to be bribed by my dad, shouldn't say that, but got a pair of boots and a Game Boy out of it. So that was quite useful. But yeah, so I joined Middlesbrough at eight-year-old and was really fortunate actually to go through the full journey. So I joined eight, which was in the nines, and went all the way through to the reserves, which would be now the under 21s. And that was just a fantastic experience. One in terms of the coaches and the coaching that I received, two in terms of making loads of friends and having some fun. Football for me has always been enjoyable, so I've been fortunate I've kept that love for the game throughout. And I guess thirdly, getting to visit some amazing places. We went on some great tours and tournaments. And the thing I probably remember most whilst the tours and tournaments were great was probably some coaches and the friends and experiences that I got from it.
[Jamie]
What was it like that academy setting compared to playing at grassroots when you were younger?
[Phil]
I didn't play too long at grassroots. Actually I probably only spent about 12 to 18 months at grassroots. And people might want me to say that it's freer at grassroots, but actually the journey that I went on was quite free throughout. The club I was at, Middlesbrough, we're really fortunate that they have a really good youth development program. Dave Palmby was in charge at the time, and he made us feel like kids all the way through. So I actually felt like a kid, regardless whether it was grassroots or whether it was academy football. I got to experience competition a little bit more at grassroots and then some of the things that come with it, i.e. Behaviours from the sideline, etc, were probably a bit more extreme from grassroots, but that's not to say that that's always the case in grassroots. That was just my experience at the time. But I think I was really fortunate that actually I just had some really great experiences throughout.
[Jamie]
Right. If we kind of fast forward your journey, can you just tell us how long was you at Middlesbrough for first and foremost?
[Phil]
Yeah, 11 years. So I was there 11 years as a player and then I was there for a further 10 years as a coach. So I spent pretty much a large part of my life there really. Yeah,
[Jamie]
no, it's a good link. So I was just going to say like, when did your interest in coaching start and how did you get involved then?
[Phil]
Yeah, well, As part of the scholarship program, you obviously do your level two, or what's now known as the UA4C license. But I was really interested in that. I was fortunate my dad had a coaching business. So he was going into schools, but also was running some football sessions. And I said, can I come and do it properly? So myself and one of the other lads in the team, we sort of went and we did a little bit. And all the time through at Middlesbrough as well, I was a captain, not saying that was because I was the best player, but I think I had some leadership qualities and some communication skills that people valued. And I remember Dave Parne be actually saying to me, you know, I think you could make a pretty good coach in the future. So that Probably because I had so much respect for him, probably got me thinking about it a little bit. I was always somebody who looked ahead anyway, and I knew that I might not quite get next contracts. So I started on that journey with the Level 2, did it properly, passed the qualification. And then when I was released from Middlesbrough, I pretty much got straight on my UWA for B licence, which I found out very quickly I definitely wasn't ready to coach. Coaching and playing were two very, very different things, but I very quickly got into that experience and I actually turned down playing opportunities to get into coaching early, which some people might say to stop playing. I've not played properly since I was 21. So some people might say like that's way too early, but I'll probably argue that it's worked out okay based on some of the experiences that I've had. So.
[Louise]
And what would you say that you enjoy most about coaching?
[Phil]
I think it's probably trying to figure out the person. Everyone's different. Trying to get to know what makes people tick, how you're going to help people to develop and making it really individual to them. I think the opportunity to enhance the experience that young children have with us and give them some of the opportunities that I was fortunate enough to have is something that I really enjoy and I want to try and help with.
[Jamie]
Have your playing experiences then coming up through Middlesbrough's academy influenced your coaching approach at all?
[Phil]
I think they always do. I think there's definitely things that have influenced, both positively and negatively. If I'm honest, I would say that the things that have been influenced haven't probably been technical tactical But it's been more about how I try to treat people So when I think about the coaches that had the biggest impact on me I think about the people who made me feel special. I don't mean that they told me I was the best player They just made me feel really comfortable in their presence and that meant that I could learn and have fun and enjoy. So I won't name names but that's really important to me. And the other thing is, well, when I look back now as I'm older, we used to have three core values which came from the Academy Manager, humility, respect and honesty. And I think that just means just being a good person and that's really, really valuable and something that I try to carry through every day now, whether it's on a football pitch or just general day-to-day communication. So yeah, that for me is really important.
[Jamie]
Yeah, I like that. Some key messages there to take across. I really like that. Looking at coaching in general then, what key attributes and skills do you think, in your opinion, make a transformational coach?
[Phil]
Yeah, I mean, there's lots of different things you could say. This first one's probably not gonna surprise you, but I guess the ability to connect with people at their own age and stage of development. So there's a beauty of the person who can connect with somebody who's at under nine. There's also the beauty of someone who can connect with somebody who's under 18 and it's absolutely fine if maybe the under 9s coach isn't as good at connecting with the under 18s players as what the under 18s coach is. That's fine, just understand them where you are but that connection is absolutely key to then helping people get better. I think knowledge is up there. Again, knowledge of what though? So age and stage relevant. So it's okay to have a different knowledge and skill set to somebody else as long as you're at the right age bracket for that. Passion, something I personally have and I think if you're not passionate about what you do then probably go and do something else because you might as well put your energy somewhere. And then for me, a thirst for learning and an openness to support. I'll use the word support because coaching isn't easy. So being able to open up to people, giving you some support and recognising that you may or may not value it, but you've just been open enough to accept it, I think is really, really helpful to development.
[Louise]
So you've kind of touched a little bit on what your journey was like from when you first started out, but can you explain how you've kind of got to the role that you're doing today and kind of what you've brought with you?
[Phil]
Like I said, 11 years coming from Middlesbrough's Academy as a young player, released from there, unfortunately. And then I went and spent a year at Darling. So I was coaching the under 11s at Darlington. At the same time, I was also working in my dad's business, which was amazing because I was working on the morning sometimes with people who were 16, 17, 18 year old. And on the afternoon I was working with people who were four, five, and six. So it was just such a broad range of ages and different sort of development needs. And you're talking about working in schools and people who turned up to a variety of different sessions so I had to be adaptable. So that was amazing. Whilst doing that I was also working towards my UA for B licence which I don't mind sharing the first time I delivered a session it was about 10 years ago now so it was 20 skills that you had to tick off and in my very first session which wasn't an assessment thankfully I got 16 action points out of 20 so that straightaway told me you need to go away and you need to work really hard and to start to develop and thankfully I ended up passing the award first time and what was the final assessment days in that time. But that was really important for me because that taught me early on that if you want to get better at something, you've got to spend time on your craft, developing. So once I acquired my B licence, unfortunately, Darling folded. So I contacted Middlesbrough and said, I've got my B licence now, could I come in and just observe? I know you haven't got any coaching positions, but is there anything that I can do? Yeah, absolutely. So I spent six months just observing, and then it got to the summer, EPPP was growing, and they said, we've actually got some part-time coaching positions available, would you be interested? So I joined them in the foundation phase. I spent two years part-time in the foundation phase and I followed the boys from under 11s into under 12s, which was brilliant. And they're actually under 21s now and some of them a little bit old. So it's nice to see where they've ended up. So I've sort of seen that journey. And then after that two year part time, there was an opportunity to join full time. So they split the foundation phase role, which was somebody leading nines to twelves and split it in half. So then became the nines and tens lead coach, which was again, a fantastic experience. And I really think, you know, people sometimes value working at the top end of the game a little bit more because they see 11 v 11 as the game we see on telly or representative of the game we see on telly more often. I have to say those foundation phase years for me, and I still have a real passion for foundation phase coaching, were so useful and helpful because I had to really be clear and think about session design, connections with players, how I'm going to communicate. It was just fascinating. It was brilliant. So I spent two and a half as a foundation phase coach full time. And then, I switched across to actually saying what I've just said there to 15s and 16s and spent 18 months in that area. And then I finished off my journey with Middlesbrough before joining the FAs as head of coaching, which that was amazing in terms of learning about people. Because you're no longer working with children as much, you're working with adults and the complexity of working with adults compared to children is definitely different but fascinating and the thing that stays the same is treat people like people, get to know them and find out what's important to them and help them with that.
[Louise]
You mentioned a couple of reflections that you've had when you were talking there, but if you were to reflect back to yourself when you first started coaching and stepping into it, was there any advice that you'd give yourself?
[Phil]
Yeah, again, this one won't surprise you, but just never forget that the person in front of you is a person first, they're people first. I look back now and I think back to some of my coach behaviours and possibly some of the things that I valued in coaching when I was sort of first starting out working with foundation phase players and that. I'm a bit disappointed with myself if I'm honest. I probably didn't think of them as people enough and I probably thought of them as footballers too much. So definitely that, remember that. Whoever you're working with is a person. First and foremost, spend less time worrying about qualifications. So I understand that qualifications possibly are the gateway to jobs, but I was always chasing qualifications, which meant that actually, particularly in my first few full-time years, I had to get qualifications to stay in the roles. But I was learning lots, but trying lots at the same time, which has benefits, but the players were getting lost inside of that. And I never really knew what type of coach I was, why I coached the way I do, what beliefs I have and why I have those beliefs. So spend more time, I wish I could have spent more time, find out why I coach the way I do, what beliefs I have, and why I have those beliefs. So spend more time, I wish I could have spent more time finding out why I coach the way I do, what influenced me, why I have the beliefs that I have, and then when I land on the A license or the B license or the Advanced Youth Award, I actually feel like I can add something to the course. I can actually give something. I've got some experiences. I've got something that I really value and then I can start tuning in a little bit better. So if I really value session design or coach behaviours, when there's a workshop being done on that, I'm like, I'm 100% in the room. When there's some stuff that's also great learning, but it's also not fully where I'm at in terms of my development right now. It can be 95% in the room and that's how I save a bit of energy, but also be really clear about my development pathway. I think that I wish I could have done that.
[Louise]
Is there any tips you've got on actually finding the answer, like how you figure those things out for yourself, like what kind of coach you are and stuff?
[Phil]
Yeah, I think it's time. I really do. I think it's time. You know, it's fascinating. So I've been coaching now for within Academy Systems, I've been coaching 11 years, coaching itself probably about 13 years, and probably only in the last 12, 18 months of my journey at Middlesbrough, I really recognised what type of coach he was, why I was that type of coach or that type of person, why I had those beliefs that I did. That's come through trial and error, that's come through a lot of mess and a lot of chaos and it's also come through practice and being, I guess having a bit of confidence in yourself to say this is why I believe in the things that I believe in but not being ignorant to the fact that there's other ways of doing things and I'm not right I don't believe there's such a thing as right and wrong, but this is why I believe in it. So I'm a really big advocate of going to watch people. I'm a big advocate of reading and having a go. And that bit I said right at the start about being open enough to someone to say, I'm not sure that that there was the best thing for the players, what's your thoughts? So yeah, I think that's, that's probably quite helpful.
[Louise]
Just a bit of a reflection and writing things down maybe, or kind of just taking note of how you respond to things, I guess, might be a good step for people to try. Yeah.
[Jamie]
And obviously the importance there in terms of whatever it is that you learn, actually putting it into practice and giving it a try and seeing how, how it works for you. A really good point there. Phil, if there has been any that springs to mind, what would you say is the best piece of coaching advice you've ever received?
[Phil]
I'd feel really sort of uncomfortable saying just one piece I think I've been blessed with some of the people I've had in my coaching journey but I always remember coming on my year license with the FA and being fortunate to have some real knowledge in the room. I have two people and I won't say who they were, but two people who were very much at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of their coaching beliefs and how they would interact with players and people because of that, and both were very, very good. So one, I would say, was probably a lot more what you would class as player-led or sort of constraints-based, that would be a better way of putting it. And then the other one would probably be more around what people might perceive to be coach education. So stop, stand still, here's some real big information, ***, ***, ***, get the ball to move, ***, ***, ***. And what I really valued in seeing both those people, which has helped me massively, is two different ways of doing things, two fantastic people with great knowledge, but they were absolutely 100% clear about why they were doing what they were doing and how that would benefit the players. Goes back, I guess, to what I said before, in a sense of that just further enhanced me that I needed to understand what type of coach I was and why I had the beliefs that I had. And that A license experience was fantastic for me.
[Jamie]
Brilliant. Thanks for that. I suppose this is kind of building in some of the stuff that you've already alluded to a little bit that you kind of have a bit of an interest and expertise in developing individuals. It is something that you've done throughout your career of course, so we thought it'd be good to dive into this area first by asking why do you have that interest and why is developing individuals really important in football?
[Phil]
I used to be very task focused and I think you can find that sometimes with coaching. When you're on your own, you've got a group of players, you become very task focused, get that task done, next task, next task. And I recognise that in myself and probably recognise that mostly when I went into the head of coaching position, that advocate, I was too task-focused. And as I've said in quite a bit of this podcast, really, about people first, I wanted to become more people-focused than task-focused. And I think all of us on the call and everyone who's listened to this, everybody loves to feel special. So if you can become a little bit more people-orientated, a little bit more individualised with that sort of feedback and the way that you look after people and treat them as a person, I think that just makes them feel more special. You're going to get more buy-in, that individuality in terms of how you support people. I just think that helps in terms of the journey because we recognise that not everyone will become a professional footballer and not everybody wants to by the way. But football can be a gateway to so many more things in terms of whether it's coaching or just teaching us boundaries or helping people to with life skills communication etc. So how do we become more individualised with the work that we do and then that way, hopefully, regardless of where people end up in the journey, we can say that we've done absolutely everything that we possibly can to help that person become a better person, a better footballer, a better coach, whatever it is.
[Louise]
What would you say are the first steps for coaches to start becoming more individual focused? So I
[Phil]
was going to say get to know the players, but I'm going to start with something else first. I'm going to say get to know yourself first. So really start to understand yourself. And then once you understand yourself a little bit more, which is a really difficult thing. And as I said before, I've been really disappointed about some of my past behaviors when I've had to get to know myself a bit more. But then once you get to know yourself, I think you can get to know the players or the people in your care a little bit more. And that's not in a prescribed way where you say, Oh, we're in a classroom isn't it? Exactly. So, you know, come and have a sit down. How was your day? Because I think that's, that sometimes feels a bit uncomfortable, a bit unnatural. But I think you can be clever about how you accidentally slash on purpose bump into people in the car park on the way to the pitch. And then just say, oh, you know, how's things? You know, how's your family? How was the game of the weekend? Did you watch Newcastle win again? What did you enjoy about that? Did you see such and such score? I really sort of think that reminds me of you when you play. So it's about being deliberate but not putting... Because I think back to me as a kid, if a teacher sort of said, oh, can you come and sit in a classroom? A bit awkward. But if I'm walking to the P field and my teachers talk to me about something that I enjoy, something that engages me, I'm like really relaxed and I open up a bit more and teachers find out things about me without me even realising that I'm giving them that information. So that for me would be a little tip.
[Louise]
So obviously there's lots of players in a group normally. So how can you facilitate individual player development within a season while still working with the whole team?
[Phil]
Yeah. So I think this is where a constraints based approach or the use of constraints can be really helpful. Now I'm going to point out straight away, some of the people listening that they're constrained every time they walk out on a football pitch because they might only have a certain area. They might be in a small hall, they might be on a grass pitch, but they've actually only got a sixth of it or a third of it, or some people might be fortunate enough to have a full pitch. You're constrained every time you go out. You might also be constrained by the elements of the weather. Let's consider we've got a center back who we feel doesn't defend space very well this could be at any level so and then we've also got a center forward who we want to get more repetition of running in behind so making runs into space so we're going to play again whatever space we've got we're going to set out a pitch, but we're going to offset the halfway line. So we're going to make sure that one side's got a smaller half and the other side's got a larger half. And guess what? We're going to put the center back and the center forward attacking the larger half. So that way we've got space for him to defend. We've also got space for the attacker to run in behind. We've also got a centre midfield player who wants to develop, or we feel he needs to develop because it's a super strength. His continued ability to play diagonal passes in behind back four players for our centre forward who we want to run in behind. So he is also going to be attacking the larger half. So naturally he's an affordance of the area sise. He's going to play passes into the space because the center forward is going to continue to make those runs. Those three players are getting their individual learning plans or just individual areas that we've recognised want to help them, but the rest of the players are getting the game. So everyone's still getting something. They're still getting what is 7v7, 11v11, 5v5, whatever that is. Everyone's getting the game that they recognise, but these three players are getting something more individualised. So that's just one very, very simple example that we could use.
[Jamie]
How can coaches kind of ensure that they're putting stuff like that in to look after individual player development, but how can they do it if maybe they're the only coach for a team and it is a large group and stereotypically there's only, especially in grassroots football, coaches tend to only have an hour a week. How can coaches ensure that they keep doing that within those parameters that they've got?
[Phil]
That's why I think that, you know, I was talking about the game there and everybody's getting the game, but some players are getting some individual stuff going on. I think if you're the only coach and you've got an hour a week, then I think the game might be your best friend. And I'm not saying doing the same game all of the time, you can change to adapt different formats, different things like that. But if You play a game where everybody's getting the game, and then you start to individualise some constraints. All you as a coach has got to do is actually think about refing, and then choose when to cleverly intervene. Now, that might be I'm going to work in eight-minute blocks because I'm actually on my own today. My job during it is to ref and observe so I can pick up on some of the subtle things that are going on and help the players get better at them. Or it might be in this moment in time I need to step in, but generally I can play to the rules of the game. And then you can, again, we've used the example there before, but what about also just cutting off areas of the pitch. So players are subtly gonna do things by what we choose to do. So as an example, I've got a right-sided player, a right winger, who I want to get more repetition of running diagonally inside the pitch because he's really quick and he goes down the outside well, but when he gets matched physically, he's not very good at coming inside. So all I'm going to do on his side of the pitch is cut it off. So I'm going to make it diagonally and bring it in towards the goal. So it's going to force him to run inside. And on the left side of the pitch, I'm going to leave that wide open because I want my left back to get repetition of overlaps. So I'm not going to cut that off because I need to leave in the space. Everyone else is still getting the game that we've offered, but me as a coach, I'm just going to observe what the constraint of the pitch is given these two players. I'm going to ref it, and then I'm going to support them during intervals. So yeah, I think Sometimes we can, and it is really difficult. I've been there when I've had big groups, but I think sometimes we can use that as an excuse to why sometimes we, oh yeah, it was difficult for me tonight because I had lots of players. Appreciate that, and it is very difficult. And you might not be able to add the level of detail and complexity that you want if you're on your own with say 16 to 20 players. But that's where your session design can provide the players with experiences that you think or hope they might get on a weekend and the transferability becomes really high.
[Jamie]
So I just want to follow up there. You talk about obviously kind of putting parameters in place for certain players. For that to happen you obviously really need to know your players and understand them. Do you have any tips for that because anyone listening might think if they're brand new to a team they might not know that that's what's potentially needed for their development. So at what point can a coach kind of find that out to be able to alter their session design and how can they get to that moment?
[Phil]
Probably two things. One, the players. So if we've built that relationship with them, it depend upon age, But even young players are pretty good at telling you the things that they value, they want to get better at, or the things that they think they're already good at. So this is not always about helping them to get better at the things that we feel they need to get better at. The thing that's going to help players to either continue enjoying the game or to get a career in the game is probably more likely to be the things that they're good at. So speak to the players. They've got a reasonably good idea of where they're at. And then spend time observing. I think sometimes as coaches, we feel like we need to be actively heard and seen. And I think particularly in certain environments, we can feel that if I don't show that I've seen something that's just gone on, so I don't speak or tell the players that I've recognised it, then that's somebody else who's watching from afar might think I don't have the knowledge. But spend time observing, recognise what's going on, you've got a season's worth of work or possibly longer with these children or these players in your care. So take time, have a little watch, have a little observe and subtly just make changes that can help them. And the other thing as well, we've talked a lot there about individual challenges but if you want to put a team challenge on, let's say your team, you feel like at the weekend they didn't build play very well or they didn't change the tempo very well, then just a simple team reward around things such as if you score a goal, great, that's a goal, but if you get six plus passes that's going to be two goals. So what you'll tend to find is, because there's a reward, people will try to get six plus passes. So they'll drive towards building play a bit more. But what you'll also get is they'll sometimes neglect the opportunity to play forward quickly when it's on. And then there's a simple opportunity for you as a coach just to blow the whistle and say, what do you recognise? Oh, we could have played forwards, sent it forwards in. Okay, Why didn't we? Well, we want to get two goals. Okay. But in a game, what would you do? Well, we just go and score. All right. So whilst we have a reward, that reward helps us to coach because the players will make decisions based around what the reward is.
[Jamie]
I think that's an interesting part with that sort of approach in terms of because if you'd flipped it the other way and said you have to make six passes it's kind of taking away from what is realistic to the game so it's quite an interesting point putting the reward there they don't have to do it but of course it's there if you want to it helps you get to work on, obviously, on the session focus there. So that's really good use. We've talked a little bit about it. We're kind of touching on like almost like the space, the area space and whatnot. So it leads nicely into how can coaches use STEP to design sessions that allow their players to get better?
[Phil]
Yeah I feel like we've particularly probably spoke about space and tasks quite a bit but again it's not rocket science but smaller areas are going to give you something and larger areas are going to give you different returns so there's some stuff there around playing with area size. I think with that though what I'd say is sometimes doing the same session over a couple of weeks or over a couple of sessions However often you have these players But playing with the area size or some of the task constraints that we're talking about Means that the players spend less time getting used to the session and more time practicing within the session So there's two things around that and then in terms of equipment let's take goal sizes as a really simple one. And some people might not have goals. So then itself, but playing with a big goal compared to playing with a smaller 7b7 goal, regardless of age are going to bring around different things. So if you see a larger goal, you're more likely to shoot, see a smaller goal, maybe clever about trying to keep the ball work closer to give yourself a higher chance of scoring. Also the goalkeepers in a larger goal are going to have to think about diving out a little bit more to make saves in a smaller goal possibly more things around the feet so there's some stuff that we can consider. And then in terms of the numbers of people that we have, so, you know, I would play in even numbers. I would play in, you know, outnumbered, underloaded, overloaded, that sort of stuff. I think straight away we can just adapt little bits that are going to constantly change what we do and the returns that we get from the practice.
[Louise]
Can you talk to us a bit about the practice spectrum and how this can help player development as well?
[Phil]
Yeah, absolutely. So it might be what people refer to more as constant practice or what would be unopposed practice, variable practice, which might be unopposed with interference. And then you've got the random practice of the games that might be overloaded or it might be sort of equal numbers. I guess the thing for me first is, are they the right titles? Because there's anything really ever random or not. But, and then for me, there's just something here about, do they always need to sit in isolation or can we actually build them in together? So particularly thinking about the coach who only has one hour a week and is on their own, I think there's a way to build in constant repetition or unopposed practice within an opposed game. So if you think about putting in a little thin channel where a number 10, again, I don't like using numbers, but a number 10 can drop in there and he has two touches to open up and play forward because we want him to get repetition of receiving on their back foot to pass into wide players or center forwards. Then we can put in that zone where two touches, they can't be tackled. Now, if they choose to take more than two touches, whether that's because their receiving position wasn't right, their body shape, their first touch, et cetera, then the game becomes live and they can be tackled. So there's a decision-making element to what they're doing, but they can give them repetition of that receiving on the back foot under no pressure as such unopposed practice. Or again, if you think about a central defender who you want to get repetition of receiving off a goalkeeper, so you want them to get constant practice, unopposed practice of receiving from a goalkeeper to open up and play forward, just have a free zone where the box is. So if he drops in there, it can't be tackled. But as soon as you come out of that box area that you've, you've sort of lined off, then the game's live. So you get repetition, you get constant unopposed practice through a game that you're now stepping into. So both elements are working together. But I guess the key bit for me is recognising why are you doing what you're doing? Why did you choose to deliver that part of the session and who's it for? And does everybody need the same bit? So does everybody need the constant bit, the unopposed practice bit, or the variable unopposed interference? Or is it that it's just easy for us to put everybody in the same part of the practice at the same time because it saves us where and I think that's where we need to get a little bit more creative in terms of our coaching.
[Jamie]
Right and sticking with the practice spectrum and I suppose also with step with the number of players How important would you say small-sided games are for developing players?
[Phil]
Very, in terms of offering them experiences. That's how I probably look at it. A variety that offers them some experiences that is hopefully going to help them to get better at the things that we want them to get better at? And my question, this is probably more around how deliberate though, are we about what small side of formats we're putting our players into? So is it that we're just putting everybody into 3v3 one week and 7v7 the next week and 2v2 one week and, you know, 11v11 and that in itself provides fantastic variety and fantastic experiences. Is there a place for us to say a little bit, actually, Jamie, you're going to spend the next three weeks playing 3v3 because, and then there's a rationale behind that, i.e. You might get more touch to the ball, you might get more 1v1 opposition contacts, you might get more opportunities to run with the ball. Whereas Louise is going to spend more time in a 7v7 or 8v8 game because that's going to provide more opportunities to pass and share the ball and that's something that Louise is getting better at. So we might become a little bit more deliberate about how we choose to give people time in different areas. But the use of small sided games for me is really important. Even as adults, if somebody provides two goals, direction, opposition, calls it a game, we get excited, we start running around crazy and we become kids again. So that in itself probably tells you a little bit about how important they are.
[Louise]
What was the game programme like at Middlesbrough?
[Phil]
Geographically it was a challenge because you've got to think where we are in the North East, sometimes clubs will be, most of the time actually, clubs will be travelling two hours plus to come and play us. So we wanted, particularly in the foundation phase at times to be creative with our formats that we were playing, even in a wide EP. But the challenge would be, and I think this is something that we're really trying to shift as an FA actually, and as a English football, was parents would perceive, or I remember once a coach saying to me, we'd love to come play 5v5 so that everybody gets full maximum game time. But if we do that, we're traveling two and a half hours, our parents are not going to be very happy about that. Now that was quite a few years ago. So we had a real challenge with that, but we were trying to shift towards that, not all the time. And I think training can provide a variety of formats as well. So we've got to be clever about how we use that in training. But our games program was varied in the sense of we had to then go elsewhere. So we had to go to tournaments, we had to travel, we had to be willing to travel to get that variety that we were looking for. So I guess definitely we tried to have a variety, but we possibly couldn't get it through where we were. It was challenging. But I think it's easier potentially for some people that might be in areas where there's a lot more clubs, a lot more games programs going on. And I think we could also have been better at possibly using grassroots and being sort of clear about picking up the phone and saying, we're trying to work on X, you know, could you come in and provide that problem for us?
[Jamie]
Really interesting point that you made there in terms of like wanting to play a small sided games but the parents not being happy. I suppose, how can coaches help to maybe change that mindset in terms of that small sided games are beneficial and just cause it's not 11 V 11 or the bigger game in whatever format is an age group that coaches who are listening to this are coaching it. How can they kind of change that mindset where people are thinking actually what you're doing is really beneficial so so yeah the small sided games is an approach that we should be taking.
[Phil]
The hardest bit might actually be getting it on because I think once you get it on and let's say as an example recently we've used a game called the Power of 10, where there's a 7v7 and a 3v3 going on at the same time. And the noise coming from a 3v3, the smiles, the enjoyment, the opportunity to score goals, all those contacts on the ball are through the roof. And visually, you can see that. So the hardest bit might be actually getting the games on because once you do provide it then all you've got to say to people is just observe. And you might get the parents or the people involved by saying I want you to observe today and we'll have a little bit of a discussion at the end about what do you feel we got from 7v7 in this example and from 3v3. Now you're not going to change everybody's perspective, that's fine, but then you're trying to attune them to watch something and then hopefully they recognise some of the subtleties that are going on between the different formats. So for me, there's probably that. And then some people really enjoy statistical evidence. So if you're fortunate enough, particularly, I guess, more in professional clubs here, if you value varying your formats and you get your analysis team to put together some statistics around what different formats give you, and you're clear about why you're using those formats linked to individual player needs and development and possibly your wider club development model, then the evidence will be there for you to back up about if you want players to spend more time doing X, here's the format that will provide that.
[Jamie]
Out of interest then Phil, just changing it a little bit away from the practice spectrum, From a club perspective, what would you say were the most important skills and attributes you wanted to see in a player at Middlesbrough and how can coaches develop those skills further?
[Phil]
Yeah, nice question. I don't know if it'd be fair to say this was the whole club, this probably came more from my time as Davies and Academy manager and then followed me and still does now. But for me it would probably be about the ability for players to stay on the ball under pressure, deal with pressure, be comfortable and entice players in. Now that's not, and let's be really clear here, that's not about players just running with the ball and dribbling at all moments. It's about recognising when and how to use dribbling and staying on the ball and enticing pressure to gain an advantage for the team. And I think, I know that's one thing that we as a governing body are looking at in terms of how do we continue to try and support and develop these types of players because we're seeing that they're really, really effective across the game. So that for me was something that I really, really value. And I guess we also, one thing that the club was very good at is recognising that everybody's unique. So whilst we might value individual players who can stay on the ball, there's also value in the player who's really good at defending 1v1. There's also real value in the player who's a real good passer. So whilst that's important, it's about just valuing the person that's in front of you and what are they really good at and how do we use that super strength to support the team, support them and help everybody on that journey. And then I guess the other thing for me is like mentality and how do you build mentality? I mean, that's a real difficult one. Mentality might be at the top of the game, being able to play in the World Cup final. But you know, with your game right now, it might just be about a player being able to play without getting emotional because every time something doesn't quite work for them, they get emotional. How do we help them to deal with that and just stay in the game and just continue to enjoy it and don't worry about the mistake they just made, get back on the ball. So there's varying levels of mentality, but it's just about staying in that game really.
[Louise]
Will Barron Right.
[Jamie]
And do you have any top tips for probably being able to develop those skills? And obviously when we asked the question in terms of what important skills were from a club level, of course, what you know, the staying on the ball message is key across the landscape, not obviously just at club level, but it was interesting to get the insight that it's similar messages from your time there to what we're saying to coaches now.
[Phil]
Yeah, one that I used to quite like and we used to use a little bit with players. Sometimes we use it just individually and sometimes we use it collectively across the group, dependent on age and stage and where they're at. But just a really simple constraint around you've got to play in one or three plus touches. So what we're trying to help the players to recognise is, well, if you've got a load of pressure, that's not to say you're going to play in one, but when do you lend it? So it comes into you and you lend it quickly. And then how does that influence what you're doing next? So are you lending it to get a one-two? Are you lending it because you've opened up a pass and then for somebody else? Are you lending it because you're not a player who can wriggle out? If you choose to take two, you now know that you've got to wriggle. So you've got to wriggle, you've got to shake, you've got to stay on the ball. That pressure's there now. How do you get yourself out of that? So a simple constraint straight away made the players practice in an area that we valued and we want to try and help the players become better at it. And something we know we felt was really important for our development model and our game model.
[Jamie]
Brilliant. Thanks for that. Do you have any top tips for how to develop players in each section of the FA four corner model? And just for the benefit, any listeners who haven't come across the four corner model, the four corners are technical, tactical, physical, social and psychological. Could you kind of fill our listeners into what that means and yeah how you can help develop players in each of those corners?
[Phil]
I guess this is where I sit with this one is we tend to look at them in isolation. So we tend to look at all the corners in isolation. And we might say, actually, at the start of this practice, I'll use a club example, not saying this was Middlesbrough, just a club example. We'll give them to the sports scientist at the start because they'll take off the physical bit. And then what we've then got to think about is that it's more so the technical, tactical bit, whereas I think we need to start possibly not all the time, but more often thinking about them as a collective and recognising that they probably don't happen in isolation and the capability of one, i.e. Your physical capabilities, might then inform your tactical decisions and then the technical capability to deliver those tactical decisions. And then the psychological element of, well, I know I'm not as quick as you, Jamie, so there's a psychological thing here going on for me. So if you take an area size as an example, we talked before about the step principle, smaller or bigger areas will elicit different physical returns. The rules of the game will, how we cleverly sort of design those rules, how we separate players into teams or formations and individual duels up against each other will straight away psychologically stretch me. And then that psychological stretch in the players that I have on my team, if I have a quick winger or I don't have a quick winger, I have a centre forward who can run in behind or I have space to play into, will determine some of the technical and tactical decisions that I'm making. So straight away there, if you think about the game and the constraints, ideas that I keep throwing around, the four corners have been continually merged. And I think the psychological bit is possibly the one that we maybe don't consider often enough, but I think coaches do it better than they give themselves, they do give themselves credit for. I think this is where our coach behaviors and being deliberate or a bit more aware of our coach behaviors can be really, really important as well, because I'm not saying plan your coach behaviors. I'm not saying at moment 38.5 in your session that you're going to go in and do X with the player. It can't be like that but be really clear about if you want players who are creative and problem-solving decision-makers well that's probably going to inform the types of interaction you're going to have with them. So as an example, again, another one that I quite like is if you're going to go in and work with players and you say to them, okay, what are you seeing? What are you noticing? What are you feeling? If you ask them those questions straight away, it's such an open question and it's also to them, it's personal to them, it can't be right or wrong. Socially, there's a response coming. So there's the social corner bit. Now psychologically, I'm asking them to try and go back and remember some of the things that have just gone on. I'm also tactically challenging them through that question around, okay, What did we do? Why did we do it like that? So straight away, there's all those things just for that one question about what you're seeing. We're hitting the corner, so yeah, we can do some stuff in isolation, absolutely, but there's two examples there through session design or the quality of our questions that can merge those corners together. Now we might choose to dial up in one of the corners specifically because keep going back to, where are our players right now? What is that individual need in front of me? And here's the bit I'm gonna hit them with a little bit more. But again, going back to that person who has one hour a week, well, there you go. There's some stuff. Now I'm not saying those questions are easy and given, and the other thing I'll say is if you ask that question, what you see and what you feel and what you're noticing, players might go a little bit quiet, give them the time, give them the space. You might feel uncomfortable. Guess what? They probably feel even more uncomfortable and they will at some point shout something out and there we go. Our skill as a coach now is to either try and help them or ask them another question that's going to help them to further their knowledge and learning.
[Louise]
What top tips do you have for coaches who are working or are looking to work with primary-aged players?
[Phil]
Oh, good question. This is going to be possibly a bit of a cop-out, but I'm not sure I'd necessarily separate the top tips, whether they're working with primary or secondary school children. I think the knowledge base that we might have to have, so that knowledge base is probably the bit that's going to change and adapt. But I'll go back to what I keep saying, it's just meet them where they are, know what does that player in front of you need in terms of their age and stage of development? Get to know them, get on their level. If it's not for you to work with players who are that young, as an example, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, go and work with the players that suit your skill set or where you want to be a little bit more. But in terms of connection, get to know them, get to know the person in front of you. Be able to have fun. I like to say enjoyment more because I think fun's easier. I think we can, anyone can turn up and have fun. Enjoyment sometimes can be hard work actually, but I can enjoy working hard. So there's that element to it, but create boundaries within that. I think regardless of what age people need boundaries. On one of our courses the guy who delivers the thing around boundaries is fantastic and without boundaries then this this idea of social construction is really really difficult. But yeah I feel I find it really difficult to separate the key things. I think you've just got to dial certain things up and down dependent on the age and stage. I think if you're going to work in secondary school you've just got to be aware of some of the other life things that are going on. So growth, maturation, interests and other things, exams, choices in life that are going to be coming. I think there's a lot more going on there and possibly it's even more important that you can dial in the person and be a little bit more empathetic. Empathy is really big, I guess, throughout the whole of life. Trying to walk in somebody else's shoes is actually quite a difficult thing, really.
[Jamie]
Brilliant. Thanks for that. And kind of finally to wrap this section up Phil, could you summarise the key top tips on player development and session design that you want coaches to take away from this episode please?
[Phil]
Yeah, I guess my three would probably be meet the players where they are in terms of their stage of development. Be clear with your intentions as to why you've chosen to deliver the way you do in terms of your plan, both from a session design and coach behaviours, as I keep saying. And then challenge yourself to integrate individual player learning within a team framework, which might sound a bit scary, but hopefully there's a few tips here that you can have a little go at.
[Louise]
Okay, so next we're going to try something new, which is the coaching challenge. So we're going to ask our guest to give us or give our listeners a coaching challenge that they can try out between now and the next episode and then feedback to us on the coaching community. So Phil, do you have a coaching challenge for our listeners?
[Phil]
Absolutely. So my challenge to the listeners is in your next session or next few sessions, Can you be creative with your session design in terms of area? So whether you're going to constrain the practice by, like we've said, offsetting halfway lines, giving bigger area sizes, cutting off a part of the pitch that is going to help individuals or the team to collectively work towards something that you hope or want them to get better at.
[Jamie]
Yeah, brilliant. Thanks for that. Thank you. Looking forward to seeing, hopefully getting some feedback on the community as well with regards to listeners giving that a try and seeing how that went. Well, Phil, we are coming up to the end of the episode now, but that does mean it is time for our Swift session feature.
[Louise]
So yeah, we're going to give you 30 seconds to try and to explain to us a session idea. Is that something you think you can do?
[Phil]
Let's go for it.
[Louise]
Okay, so I'll set the timer up and then when it starts, you can give us your idea. Okay, time starts now.
[Phil]
Okay so surprise surprise we're going to play a game and what we're going to do is we're trying to help dribblers understand when to dribble and when to share the ball. So what it's going to be is there's going to be a reward constraint on attacking players that the amount of players that you beat in the final third, so we're going to section the pitch up into thirds, the amount of players that you beat in the final third and score equals the amount of goals. So then there's going to be some stuff there on helping players around. I've actually drawn players towards me, do I pass or actually I keep going and I individually smash the ball on the back of the net and enjoy what I've just done.
[Louise]
And there your time's up. Very good.
[Phil]
Yeah, I felt a bit rough so maybe not that great. I've had a little go at it.
[Louise]
Is there anything else that you'd like to add to that just to kind of wrap it up?
[Phil]
I guess the only other thing that I'd say is enjoy what you do. So coaches enjoy coaching and make sure that the players enjoy what they're doing and leave with, I want to say smiles on their faces, but probably more importantly, they leave wanting to come back because we have a great opportunity to just provide this fantastic game. Those experiences that I talked about at the start, being a four year old in the sunshine, loving football. We have the opportunity to foster that environment for our players. So let's make sure that we do that.
[Jamie]
Brilliant. Thanks for that Phil. And we could talk all day about this. It's been great listening to you. We're aware that we've taken up quite a lot of your time. So thank you very much really. It's been great having you on and thanks for kind of sharing your story and your coaching advice. Hopefully you've enjoyed being on the show. Phil McEvoy
[Phil]
No, thank you very much for the opportunity. It's been great and hopefully there's some little bits of useful information for people with it.
[Jamie]
Certainly was, thank you. Right, well Louise, that was a really good chat with Phil. Plenty that we've squeezed into that episode. What would you say is kind of the key point that you would highlight from today's show?
[Louise]
Some really good points that he made and I really enjoyed the bits that he was talking about, about coaching individuals and kind of really thinking about the individual. And from that was one of the mottos that they used to use at Middlesbrough, which was humility, respect and honesty. I thought it was a really good way of just kind of bringing you back to what you're trying to do.
[Jamie]
Yeah, it's a really good motto and something for coaches to take on board. From my side of things, it was kind of always thinking about the why behind your decisions as a coach. So why is it a small sided game that you put in on or why is it unopposed if you're thinking about the practice spectrum, always thinking about the why and to do that is putting the player first and thinking about what they need. Right. Well, that is all we have time for today, but don't forget to check out the episode description for the transcription of this episode and for all of the links to our platforms. There you will be able to click through to the England Football Community. This is where you can post your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast or just simply to connect with loads of wonderful coaches.
[Louise]
Yep, we love to help you out with your coaching questions, so please do go and check it out. We'll be back soon with another episode of Coachcast, so if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode. From all of us at England Football Learning. Thanks for listening.