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[Jamie]
Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. Today we're chatting to Warren Hackett, an FA Youth Coach Developer for the South East, to discover his journey so far and to get an introduction to the art of defending. Hi Warren, welcome to the show, how are you?

[Warren]
Good morning Jamie, very well thank you.

[Jamie]
Good to hear.

[Louise]
Thank you for joining us, Warren. It's great to have you on. Can you tell us a little bit about your role and maybe paint a picture of what it is that you do?

[Warren]
Yeah. Hi Louise. Okay. So like Jamie mentioned already, I'm a coach developer for the Southeast. I support the coaches at the following clubs. So Arsenal, Charlton, Millwall, Leyton Orient and Colchester. I also tutor on the senior pro's A licence, the A licence course itself, the advanced youth award and the B licences. So within my role, there's other little projects that we may do, but that's pretty much it.

[Louise]
Sounds like a very busy role.

[Warren]
Yes, can be very busy, needs to be managed very well.

[Jamie]
Fantastic, well thank you very much for that. Just before we do discover a bit more about yourself and your experience as Warren, as this is a coaching podcast, coaches could be on the way to training while tuning into this. So we always like to give them some great advice at the top of the show.

[Louise]
Yep. So we call this your arrival activity to give you a bit of a warm up. So what we do is we give you 30 seconds and we ask you to give us as many top coaching tips as you can in those 30 seconds. Are you up for it?

[Warren]
Always up for a challenge.

[Louise]
Okay, brilliant. Right, well I'll set the music up and when the music starts you can begin with your top tips.

[Warren]
Plan, do, review every session, every match. When coaching it's essential that you get a session design right. Think of a step principle, space, time, equipment, players. Know your players, what they need, when they need it, how you're going to deliver it. Be approachable, players need to feel comfortable. Allow for creativity within sessions. Players will express themselves and give them the chance to. One more, make sure your observation skills are on point. If you can't see it, you can't coach it.

[Jamie]
Oh, look at that. Brilliant.

[Louise]
Absolute pro.

[Warren]
I had 12 here. I only got in six.

[Jamie]
That's impressive. It's impressive to get that amount in in 30 seconds. Well done. Well, yeah, brilliant. Thank you very much for that, Warren. I suppose we'll dive on into the rest of the show now. And we always like to start off this section by asking what was your first experience of football like?

[Warren]
I would certainly say it would be West Ham Football Club. My dad was a big West Ham supporter. He took me, I think he said he took me at about the age of four. I lived quite near the stadium So I always remember sort of as a kid, as I said, very young, early years, my school was actually positioned right next door to the club. So there was always an affiliation with it, but yeah, so about four years of age, he took me along. I remember it being cold. I remember having a big coat on and I would just remember going to this huge stadium at the time, which I thought was huge anyway. The old Upton Park, well, I thought it was huge until you went to some other grounds. But the atmosphere, the noise, I probably got a bit frightened when they started to sing I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles. But that was a real clear, vivid memory at the age of four. I'm a big West Ham fan now, I still get to go as and when I can. But yeah, that was probably the biggest and the first football experience that I can remember.

[Louise]
So as well as being a supporter, you did go on to play football yourself and at some point went to play for an academy. What was that experience like, playing football and being in the academy?

[Warren]
100%. I've played football from as far back as I can remember. I think if anyone's seen me as a kid, all they'd probably see is they'd see me, but they'd see a ball under my arm. Or they'd see me and I'd be kicking a stone or a tennis ball or anything I could basically kick, I'd be kicking. So yeah, football has been in, you know, has been around me from day one, as I said, with dad being a big influence, West Ham being a big influence. But yes, I was in the academy system. So I signed for West Ham as a school boy at the age of 11. I did one year before I left. I didn't enjoy the experience, even though it was a club I supported. Done it a few years away from the academy. So I think it was like trying to settle into secondary school, making new friends, being the only boy probably from the area who was in the academy at the time. There was a lot of boys from Essex where I was a London boy from Plastow. It took me a little while to get settled in. I never really got settled. I wanted to play with my mates. I ended up going back and playing for a club called Semrab, which is quite a well-known Sunday club. I found myself again. When I got down my confidence and built my friendships, I was then I then went to play for Leyton Orients Academy for a year or so and then I was signed at Spurs at the age of 14 as a schoolboy and then went on to do a scholarship from the age of 16.

[Louise]
Yeah it's quite interesting isn't it how it can like the experiences can change from like absolutely loving it to being in an environment where it doesn't feel like it's fun, I guess. And I guess that's a really important thing at the start of a playing career.

[Warren]
Yeah, 100%. I mean, if you look at the academy systems now, I believe there's so much pressure put on the young kids at such an early age. I mean, they sign at an academy now at nine, whereas, you know, we was obviously signing at 11. I mean, as I said, they're still in primary school. They're still finding themselves. They're probably taken away from so many social elements, friendships, sleepovers, takeaways, that type of stuff that's kind of normal for a kid, you know, be a kid for as long as you can. So my big thing now for academy football is making sure that the kids are happy, having fun from a young age and don't feel too much pressure that they've got to perform at the highest level all the time.

[Louise]
Fairly good to think about it in those terms.

[Jamie]
Yeah, just out of interest, Warren, when did you discover the fun element again within academy? You said that you obviously went to Leyton Oran and then to Tottenham after having a bit of a break away. When did you rediscover that fun element and start enjoying football again?

[Warren]
I think simply once I come out of the academy at West Ham after the year, when I went to play with, like I said, with my friends at Semrab, which is, as I said, it's a well-known Sunday club, but a very well-run one. We was very successful. We won all the leagues, all the cups. And I just think playing with my friends, like I said, it was just great to share these experiences with my friends I went to school with, played for district team with, which just helped me sort of not fall in love with the game again, cause I never fell out of love with it, but just, it was just like playing with freedom, playing with no pressures and playing, I suppose, without a badge on, like a West Ham or a Spurs or anything. So that was really important to me. So when I went to Leighton Orient after that, my coach there was a guy called Patsy Holland, who was a ex West Ham player and he managed Orient's first team, but he had us for a year, Orient, and he was, for me, he was one of the best coaches I've ever had. He helped me sort of gain more confidence in myself, express myself more. So that was really important. And funny enough, when I moved to Spurs after the year, he ended up following me. I think he came a year after, and ended up being my, two years after, ended up being my youth team coach. So for me, that was fantastic. So my learning experiences were great and he had a big influence on that in Academy football for sure.

[Jamie]
Oh, that's brilliant. That's great to hear. And it's always, it kind of highlights the importance of a good relationship between a player and coach if he's had that much of an impact on yourself. Do you want to just tell our listeners a little bit about your playing career before we get into where you started coaching, if that's alright please.

[Warren]
Yeah, of course. So like I said, my playing career started at Spurs. I was in a very successful youth team at Spurs in the 1990s. The likes of Ian Walker, Scott Howland, Stuart Nevicar and various others, Neil Smith. So we went on to win the Youth Cup, we won the league, won the South East Counties, we pretty much won everything Cadets at the time. And it got to a point where we was very successful as a team. Terry Venn was manager of the first team at the time. And I remember the conversation that I had with me after the youth cup final, they said to me that we're happy to offer you a year's contract, but your pathways are really blocked here. We've got, you know, international players playing at left back, which is where I played at the start. And he kind of alluded to the fact that there was other clubs interested in me. It might be better to think about going there to, you know, to be able to express myself and maybe get into the first team as early as I could. So I did that, had a conversation with Frank Clark at the time, Ian Walker's dad was the manager at Norwich at the time, or should I say the reserve team manager at Norwich. So there were two people in particular who came and sort of approached me. And the other one was John La, who was a former West End manager. He'd only spent a little bit of time at Spurs and I really built a great relationship with him. So I had three options basically at the time. And I actually chose to go to Leighton Orient, which people still to this day said, you know, Orient were a League One club at the time, Ipswich were a Championship and Norwich were the Premier League. And they were saying, well, you know, why did you make that decision at that age? And I remember speaking to my mum about it. I just didn't want to move away from home. I actually felt Ipswich and Norwich was a million miles away. And being in London and Orient, which was the second closest club to where I live, And having Frank Clark, who was, you know, for me, he had a big impression on me from the first conversation I had with him. Being a European Cup winner, being a left back, he said, look, if you do really well, you know, you'll get into the first team quite early. So that took me from Spurs to Orient. I spent four, nearly five seasons at Orient. Played in the first team, played up to 100 in the League and Cup games with them, playing under two or three different managers, Peter Eustace and obviously Frank Clark and John Sitton very briefly with Chris Turner. Then I went on to Doncaster Rovers, again moved up north. It's funny, it's ironic really because as much as I didn't want to move up north, they were one of the clubs that came in, made me a great offer and I ended up going. And I think they signed about seven or eight London players at the time, which helped me settle in really well. We went to Doncaster, had a season and a half at Doncaster in a very sort of successful team. Quite a lot of us ended up getting sold after a year because the club had some financial difficulties. Went to Mansfield Town, was signed by Andy King, another great manager which I played under. I had five seasons there, was captain of the team for various times as well. And from Mansfield, I ended up eventually getting my move back home. So this is six, seven years down the line now, being up North, being able to get a move back. So I signed for Barnet, had three seasons at Barnet, first season, just getting settled in, moving back home, second season got into the playoffs. And I think it was two games from the playoffs. We'd already made it to the playoffs, two games from the end of the playoffs. I snapped my anterior cruciate ligament, which was the second time I'd done it, because I'd done that at Orient when I was 19, after getting into the first team at the age of 18. So that was kind of a real big setback for me at 29. I wasn't really even thinking about never playing football again. So by the age of 30, I was in a position where I had to take my retirement early, two crucial injuries, which really finished me. So that put an end to my career at the time, which was again, I mean, as I'll answer in further questions going down the line, it was a big shock and preparing yourself for the after football, I think is something you need to probably do at the age of 25, because you just never know when that day's gonna come that you actually can't play anymore. So yeah, that's my playing career.

[Jamie]
Wow, thank you very much for that. Was coaching something that you just wanted to be involved in football? So coaching was the next sort of pathway for you? Or what was your sort of thinking around that difficult time?

[Warren]
Yeah, to be honest with you, coaching wasn't probably in the forefront of my mind because I was just seeing myself having another five years of the in within the game. When I was playing, I kind of always said to myself, I'm not sure if I'm going to stay in football. I'm not sure if coaching was going to be for me. So I started to think of other things outside of that to maybe go into, but when push comes to shove and I couldn't play anymore, I kind of felt, you know I need to do my coaching badges. So in doing that, one of my friends who I formerly played with a guy called Wayne Burnett. He was manager of Fisher Athletic at the time. So he spoke to me about coming in and doing some work with him while we both did our coaching badges together. So we did that, which was quite helpful having two of us go through it at the same time. But that was pretty much my first real experience in coaching was when I stepped in at Fisher Athletic.

[Louise]
And what was that experience like, your first experience of coaching?

[Warren]
It was an eye-opener. Working in a professional environment from pretty much the age of 16 professionally and or as a scholar professionally up right up until 30 I'm used to things being a certain way whereas going into a non-league environment like lads have turned up late for training, lads have been going at night before and I just couldn't like players did for me don't get me wrong some of the players are officially ex-players and they took it really well, but some didn't. And I think the fact that we were professional in the way we conducted ourselves, that was a real big challenge to us. You haven't got the infrastructure that the professional clubs have got. So there was always a bit of, you know, to-ing and fro-ing and firefighting to try and get things right. So it kind of, my experience in non-league, I think at the time was probably burnt a little bit and I kind of thought, this isn't really the environment that I see myself working in to get the best out of me. So that, again, I'm not saying all non-league clubs are like that, but it was just, you know, that was my experience at the time.

[Louise]
Bit of a shock to the system I guess.

[Warren]
I would say so yeah.

[Louise]
So you kind of mentioned there that obviously what you were used to and the environment that you were used to, but did you think that your playing experience influenced your coaching approach at all and like how you wanted things to be?

[Warren]
Yeah 100 percent. I said although the game sort of changed massively now, I mean, I played in the 90s, I'd like to think I took some really good traits that helped shape me as a coach. I think being a good communicator, a good listener, a leader, I would say are the biggest strengths and the biggest things that I've probably transferred across with me. So I kind of just got a vision of kind of how I see the game now and how I see how a coach can influence a player. I kind of think that's all at the forefront of my mind. Even though my role is slightly different, I'm influencing coaches to influence players, which I suppose is a bigger challenge, but you can still have the same effect.

[Jamie]
What do you enjoy most about coaching, would you say?

[Warren]
I just think being able to give something back to the game, share my experiences with future players and coaches. I would say that'd be the biggest thing for me. Yeah, the next best thing from playing is coaching, but you know, my experience is I've got and I hold and a lot of my sort of knowledge is in my head. But I suppose sharing that and influencing others would be the biggest thing for me.

[Jamie]
Brilliant. And I mean, you mentioned some of the managers that you'd played under as well. So you've got some real good experience there to be passing on. Can you tell us in terms of your coaching journey now, then what that journey was like from you first starting out coaching in the non-league to the role that you have today? Just a brief insight into that, please.

[Warren]
So yeah, like I said, I was a Fisher Athletic coaching as assistant manager. We had a couple of promotions. Like I said, it was a tough challenge, getting the players there on time and getting organised. But I think with the both of us being ex-players, we had a vision of how we wanted to play. We kind of had a bit of a game model that we wanted to implement. So I think having an understanding of the game as an ex-player really, really helped the both of us to shape us with that. Going on from Fisher, I went and had an experience out in Canada. So I went out to Canada as a guest coach, just doing some guest coaching, invited out there by a couple of friends. And I went out there twice and on my second trip, they literally said, I would love to have a meeting with you. And then offered me this position as one of the club's technical directors. And I'm thinking, wow, this is only after being in coaching for two years and I'm being offered a technical director position, which is a really, really massive grassroots club, which had a huge amount of boys and girls within the club. I mean, I can't remember the numbers, but there was actually three academy directors. So it was kind of, or technical directors, should I say. So it was a big challenge, but I think the lifestyle of Canada, being in Toronto was a big draw. So at the time I wasn't in a professional setup, I was at non-league, I'd come away from Fisher at the time. And I kind of thought to myself, you know what, you know, you can't, if you only live once, all right, I was gonna be away from the family at the time. But the idea was to ship the family out over to Canada, which ended up being a real challenge because of the immigration. But I got a work permit, I ended up spending 10 months out there at a club called Glen Shields, which was a great experience for me, really helped me in my next role at Dagenham that I took on. So yeah, it was certainly, it served its purpose, being in a different country, different cultures, very many different cultures in Canada, being able to work with boys and girls was a great experience. So that then led me on to coming back from Canada and going to Dagenham and Redbridge as the Academy Manager. So that sort of role at the time I took on in Canada didn't even cross my mind I'd be coming back at some point to link up with one of my old colleague Wayne Burnett again, who was assistant manager at Dagenham and mentioned this role would be coming available. I accepted the role, I came back and literally they said to me that, you know, at Dagenham we haven't got an academy, we've got a college program for the under 18s team, we want you to be the academy manager, you've got no staff, you've got no players, no equipment, away you go. And literally the first two months was a real challenge, having to try and shape that and get it to where it needed to be. But a challenge that I relish, I always relish a challenge, like I said earlier, and was able to get the academy up and running within a very short space of time. After that, Wayne got appointed manager, and he's pretty much the first thing he did was appoint me, or offer me the role as assistant manager. So I had sort of two and a half years as academy manager, and then went on to be assistant manager for another two years. Unfortunately, Wayne was relieved from his duties and had a brief spell as caretaker manager for four games, which was a nice experience. Obviously, with one of your mates going, it was a bit sweet, I suppose. And then coming away from Dagenham, I found it quite challenging, really. I spent nine months out of the game, kind of thinking that, well, you know, with the experiences I've got already as a technical director and academy manager and assistant manager, you kind of think that clubs would be, you know, calling me up and offering me jobs here and there, but that didn't happen. And my first role, My next role after that, I had to go all the way to India in the Indian Premier League with a club called East Bengal to get my next role. Which again, because I was, I suppose, used to stepping away from England and coaching abroad, it was probably easier to step into. But again, a massive challenge. I did a season out there, again, away from the family, which was a great challenge. But again, I suppose, you know, made me a little bit more shaped and rounded as a coach, dealing with different cultures, different language. It was a real big change from Canada. Obviously not speaking English out there, which to be fair to a lot of the players, they did, but again, very, very different culture. So after my time at East Bengal, when I came back, I came to the FA and had two seasons as a out of possession coach with the national teams for the under 19s and under 20s, worked with Keith Downing and Mark Robson, who were fantastic coaches to work alongside and to learn from. And in my role From there, just then transferring across to the education side of things. I'm still here, I've been here now for four years in the role that I'm in as an FAYCD and enjoying it thoroughly really. I never sort of ever envisaged myself being like a teacher really, as a coach educator. If I was at school and someone said you'd be teaching, I'd probably start laughing, but I suppose you grow and you evolve as you, in time. I'd like to think that I'm reasonably rounded within the football environment, so I've got something to share and offer and support people with. So yeah, really enjoying it, but that's pretty much my coaching journey along the way.

[Louise]
Just going back to your time in Canada and India, do you think there was things there that actually helped to improve you as a coach?

[Warren]
I think it made me realise the importance of being adaptable and how to work in different environments and different cultures. You know you're so used to you know, born in England, you know everything's English, you know everything we do is sort of a certain way, but also you go into two countries now where things are completely different and you can't be too set in your ways. You've got to listen, open up. Like I said, I would like to think I was a good communicator, but a good listener too. So I think the listening I did or the listening skill that I have as a strength has really really helped me in both of those environments to flourish I suppose.

[Louise]
I guess those things are also really good for like you say being an educator as well because a big part of that is like listening and kind of giving information so yeah. 100% yeah 100%.

[Jamie]
So you've had so many vastly wildly different experiences and a brilliant journey. So thank you for talking us through that. But taking in everything you've learned from all of those experiences so far, what advice would you give to your younger self to prepare them for stepping into the world of coaching for the first time?

[Warren]
Don't be in a rush. Enjoy the journey. Take it all in, be yourself. The learning never stops. Be open-minded.

[Jamie]
Love that. And now just to flip it, what is the best piece of advice that you've ever received?

[Warren]
I would probably say, I think this was probably Frank Clarke who probably said to me, enjoy every training session and game like it's your last. So basically give everything you've got at that minute, at that time, every day. Cause you never know when it's going to be kind of done and over.

[Jamie]
I love that and take that into every walk of life. What piece of advice then could you give our listeners then to help them make a positive impact on their own players journey?

[Warren]
Yeah this is a real important one for me considering my experience at West Ham as a kid. So I would say create a positive inclusive environment that players can express themselves in. So for players coming into your environment and they're kind of playing within, not relaxing, not being able to express themselves, you're not going to get the best out of them. So you need to create an environment that's very comfortable so that players can come in and just be them.

[Louise]
Yeah, that's a really good one to think about and just I suppose it's just going from the point of view of like anybody who wants to go into an environment they just want to be comfortable don't they so that they can actually be themselves. So yeah, that's a great one. So you were a defender during your playing career and defending is a topic that you still enjoy to focus on today so we thought it'd be really good to talk to you about the art of defending and to get your insight into how coaches can develop their players ability to defend. So to start can you tell us what does defending and being a defender mean to you?

[Warren]
Defending never seems to be as appealing to players as everyone wants to be a striker. I actually started out as a striker and only made the transition of being a defender at 16 at Spurs. The first thing a coach talks to me about with their defenders is how good they are on the ball. For me that is a concern. Although the players should be technically efficient, they must be able to defend 1v1. For me, defending is an art. It must be worked at. The reading of the game, being the most important, preparing, anticipating what's going to happen next. So for me going from a forward transition into a defender, I was comfortable I think because I had a lot of pace that really, really helped me. I was six foot, which probably doesn't sound very tall now for a defender, but I was quite dominant in the air, so I could get up and head it. I suppose defenders don't hit it as much now. And I think I just evolved along over the years how to read certain situations. And kind of being a forward, it was like, well, what does the defenders probably not like? And what do forwards then not like in return? So if I flip that on his head all the time, I always try to use that. Forwards like space to turn, so I don't give a forward any space. Forwards like to run in behind, so I'll either stay and keep a high line, or I'll say, you know what, I'll match you in a foot race. So there was always certain things that I tried to use as my advantage as being a defender from being a forward. But I would say, yeah, defending is an art, it's the biggest thing and it's certainly something that needs to be worked at.

[Louise]
And do you think the role of defenders changed since you were playing yourself?

[Warren]
The importance of how good you are in possession, as most teams now build from the back, so the demands to be comfortable on the ball are higher. The art of tackling has changed and become more about intercepting now. So before, you know, you could literally on the halfway line, and I probably, I don't want to sound sort of a bit funny about saying this, defenders used to just literally go straight through the back of forwards. That was the first one you put your hand up and say, all right ref, that was my first one and get away with it. You know, slight tackling now it's an art again because you miss time that he gets enough. So I'd say now the reading of the game and the being able to play on forward shoulders to be able to step in front and intercept would probably be the biggest thing that's changed the most about defending.

[Jamie]
What players in the professional game do you think are good role models for being modern day defenders and can therefore be someone that coaches and players can learn from?

[Warren]
If I look at a full-back, someone like Kyle Walker, for me he's the best one versus one defender in the world. Also as an attacking threat, Jon Stones is very effective in both boxes, which is massively important for a defender. Normally they've got to be very good in their own box, but opposition box, can they score goals as well? That's where the business happens in both boxes. And his ability to be able to step into midfield is also very good. And the reason why I say that as an important skill now is because like I said, the game has changed. And I think with John Stones being so comfortable, being able to defend first and foremost, but being so comfortable being able to step into midfield areas, it just becomes another string to his bow. So as well as being a great defender and being able to defend 1v1, having those other strengths are massively important in the modern game now.

[Jamie]
You mentioned in the past couple of answers really a few really important skills, but can you kind of just break down for the listeners, what skills do you feel players really need to become an effective defender?

[Warren]
Yeah, I think in simple layman terms, be an excellent reader of the game is essential. Be athletically mobile, be a top communicator and try and show leadership qualities. Because again, I'd like to feel that I was a leader as a player. If I use my voice effectively and my skills as a leader, I could affect pretty much the whole team around me. You know, whether it's my centre back alongside me, my full backs, my midfield players in front of me, the striker dropping in, the goalkeeper behind me. If you can be an effective leader and communicator, you can do all that and probably save myself from running a lot as well.

[Jamie]
Just to kind of build on the back of that, where you're saying like being a good leader and you know, how important is it then to develop really good communication skills as a defender?

[Warren]
When you look at that, it's a bit of a society change now. Most kids are on social media, most kids are playing on PlayStations and that type of stuff. So not many natural conversations evolve like they used to. Because without all those devices, the basic thing you needed to do was talk. And I just find now that children are so much quieter than what they used to be or what I perceived that they used to be when I was young. Because if you didn't speak, you kind of, people just didn't acknowledge you. So I see that a lot now on the pitch. So I certainly say it's something that needs to be worked on on a regular basis. And like I said, society has influenced this. And so we've probably made our own mistakes with this. But certainly we need to be mindful of, you know, to try and make sure that players are communicating as much as possible on and off the pitch and away from the social media element too.

[Jamie]
As a coach and to help our listeners, what do you want your defenders to be saying when they're on the pitch then?

[Warren]
I mean, there's basic information like, get tired, drop off, get up to the ball, force outside, force inside, man on, etc. Basic, simple information like that because you haven't got time to talk in sentences. You know, there's normally, you know, buzzwords that are used now for players to, you know, to pick up quite quickly And I think all the academies have got their own academy vocabulary and they probably vary at different clubs. But as long as the players on the pitch and the coaches understand that this is a way we can communicate without having to tell a story. So that's really, really important.

[Louise]
Do you think there's ways that coaches can help develop their players' confidence to communicate?

[Warren]
Yeah, I think they can go around, give them a lead role on a pitch and only allow them to talk in their unit or team. I think it's quite effective. I've used it many a times where I've had a centre-back who just doesn't talk. And I say, right, in this game, in this session, in this block for the next six minutes, you're the only one who's allowed to talk within that block. If I wanted to make them, so put a bit more pressure on them, I'd say, right, you're the only player in your team who can talk and let him be the only communicator. The rest have got to make references with pointing and gestures, but he or she be the only person to talk. So that was kind of a way I kind of used that to influence a bit more communication.

[Jamie]
In that sort of example that you've used, have you ever had it where that player still is, might be a little bit shy to do that? So you might be putting that constraint on where you're saying you're the only person in your unit that can talk. But if they're a little bit shy and a little bit hesitant for that, what could you as a coach say to maybe encourage them to take that challenge on?

[Warren]
I think before the session, I'd tee it up for sure. And I'd say, you know, do you realise the importance of talking and communicating and what it can do for you and what it can do for your team? So if I kind of dress it up like that, just explain the importance of the communication and how he can have an impact on his team and make things easier for himself or herself, I think that would be the way forward for it.

[Jamie]
Yeah, that's a really great piece of advice there and it can be quite a daunting thing for kids especially to be able to take up. So yeah, just getting that, the importance of communication across is a really big thing. Just looking at some of the other skills that we feel like making effective defender, you've mentioned the importance of intercepting and we've mentioned tackling so challenging for the balls, maybe a little bit less so there's more importance on incepting but we've got a few themes that we kind of break down into the out of possession game. So we've got intercepting, pressing, marking, challenging, covering and recovering. Could you break each of those skills down and stating how important they are for players to develop and what they might need to do to successfully utilize each action? I apologize, that's quite a big question there. So we can come back to a couple of the themes we want to start with intercepting if that's all right, please.

[Warren]
So for me now, like I said, the modern game. This is an essential skill that's needed for the modern game defender. So I would say I'd wrap it up around that to start with. If I go for all of them briefly and we can come back, maybe all players suppressing all players, not just defenders need to know how and when to press on the pitch. Marking marking is always a mass is massive when defending, but knowing when to mark and when to cover space is really, really important. Challenging, your timing now when challenging is critical. You cannot make any mistakes with this now. You need to master the timing of the challenging, again, which is really key to the timing of it. Covering and recovering, distances and positioning is key. So that's sort of wrapped up as a summary on all each one. So again, it's just really speaking to your players about what they see. So when they're not in possession of the ball, what are they defending? So they're defending their goal. What's the person that's going to try and score in a goal? Well, that's the player that they're marking. So how now can I best position myself to stop me from scoring, potentially stop my opponent or my direct opponent from receiving the ball? So positioning would be wrapped around intercepting really, because if you're in the right position, you're in the right position to intercept. So pressing, so like I said, all players, not just defenders need to know how to press. So for me, it just depends on your game plan. Some, not all teams press. I mean, it's very much a trendy thing now for most teams to press. So if they are going to press, they need to know who they're going after to press, how they're going to press, when they're going to press them. You know, all those things are really, really important. So, pressing is based on triggers. So, your trigger might be if the ball gets played backwards, sidewards, if it's a slow ball, things like that might be triggers to go and press. So, That's a real visual for a player to understand as to when to do that. I think the big thing for me is one go, we all go. If one person does decide to go on the front foot and press, the whole team's got to come behind them because you leave too many gaps between the units behind you. That'll be the real thing for me. Again, it goes back to positioning. So if you're not in the right position to press, you can't press. So for me, intercepting and pressing are really, really, all of them really are wrapped around positioning. I'll go on to marking. So again, marking, I think a big thing I had to understand as a defender is that even I was in the box, I didn't always have to mark the player tight. So depending where the ball was, if I was a fullback and a real big thing that was taught from me is to be inside looking out rather than outside looking in. So if I'm a fullback at the far post, I wouldn't want to be marking my wide player, man to man, at the back post because they normally tend to hold out and come in a bit later. So I'd always make sure I positioned myself inside the pitch, protecting the goal, seeing both ball coming in and seeing the player to my left shoulder if I'm left back. So that was really, really important with marking. So understanding when to mark the player or when to mark the space is vitally important. But again, it's your positioning as to where the goal is and where the ball is, is to where you need to place yourself. Challenging. We spoke about a little bit around challenging. So again, I think a dying art now is going on your backside and challenging now. Not as many players do that because of the risk of committing a foul, getting a yellow card or ultimately getting sent off. So I think now people are standing on their feet a lot more, which really means now that you've got to be kind of on the shoulder of the opposition player to be able to challenge. Whether you want to use your body to move them physically or whether you just want to use your speed to step in front and challenge. Or your challenge might be you jump up for a header and they go to head it, you drop off. That's also seen as a challenge, but you're being smart and winning the ball from behind them. So I suppose it's just different techniques now as what challenging would, what is now than what it used to be. Covering and recovering. So again, that's basically down to the distances between each player, each unit and the team. That's vitally important and recovering, you know, if you're going to go and be in a high pressing team and they beat your press, you know, I'd like players to be able to recover back into position as quick as possible to be able to give us a bit more compactness through the team again. So yeah, hopefully that was a reasonable summary of all those.

[Louise]
Really great to hear all those and I think loads of people will find them really useful points and summaries to think about in their training. How important is it for players to be able to defend in 1v1 situations and to defend in wide areas?

[Warren]
Yeah, I think this is so underrated and not exposed enough in academy football, our first team. We always seem to have a plus one when defending when possible. And I understand why we have a plus one, it's security, we don't want to concede a goal, we want to be really safe. But when we're talking about development football now, you know, for me, I'd want to be exposing those players to those one-on-one situations at the earliest point, so that by the time they do reach the PDP phase, they're just totally comfortable with this. I totally understand that some players will be better than others at this, some are going to be quicker, some are going to be more agile, but being exposed to it is probably a way to practice to improve.

[Louise]
And do you have any practice ideas that coaches can use to kind of work on this?

[Warren]
Yeah, I mean, probably there's a real old one we used to do, which was like a man to man all over the pitch. No one else could tackle you apart from your direct opponent. You always never had an opportunity to match up. The managers are always, and the coaches are always really cute when they did this because the physical match-ups are vitally important. There's no point putting someone who's a lot quicker than another person on a one-v-one man, man-to-man situation because in more time they're not never going to get near them. But the matchups are vitally important whether it's physically, whether it's by speed, however it is, if they're matched up right, you know, in these small or in these practice design games, then that can be really beneficial to be able to get around a pitch and mark in one V one. A small zone games, practices one V one. So you might have, you know, a one V one zone, a one V one zone, another one V one zone. So you've got three zones with two goalkeepers at either end. And then you can obviously only tackle the player in your own zone but they're trying to play you directionally to pass through. So again equally that's an important game because where you position yourself to be able to intercept or challenge your opponent can be quite quite effective too. But you've still got the idea of it's a game, you're playing directional as well.

[Jamie]
Another part of defending that we've not touched on just yet is emergency defending. Could you explain what this is and the importance of it?

[Warren]
I think being able to defend competently near your goal when outnumbered or just outnumbered anywhere on the pitch, for me as an emergency defender. Obviously, it becomes more emergency when it's near your goal because of the fret, but it could also be emergency sort of at the top end of the pitch when you've got a lot of numbers up there because you've been on a counter and then you're getting counter-pressed. So equally, really, it's just about, you know, being able to get numbers around the ball as quickly as possible.

[Jamie]
And how would coaches be able to work on that throughout the age group?

[Warren]
So again, I put sort of in a sort of set up lots of box to box game. So two penny boxes matched up together. Lots of defending lots of attacking moments near the goal. Yeah, you're going to be exposed more time than not. Maybe, you know, a freebie free or four before with two boxes back to back with two goalkeepers, you're going to get a lot of interactions with attacking and defending. And like I said, a lot of players that will be isolated in wide areas, central areas and so forth.

[Jamie]
How important and useful are games that are like underloaded and overloaded for defenders?

[Warren]
Yeah, I mean the underloaded situation with or without the ball is going to be good because many defenders get sometimes caught out with a 2v1 overload when they're defending and I was always taught to try and delay the person on the ball as long as possible but to also get your body in a position where they can't play to the second player. So that's highly important. I also think if we want to develop dribblers, then why not have them playing a 1v3 or a 1v2 rather than a 1v1, if you want to get them to express themselves and beat players. So sometimes have that, you know, enhance both sides where your under loader's a defender and your under loader's an attacker. Equally important as each other.

[Louise]
I was going to say, it sounds like a lot of what we've been talking about might have been aimed at slightly older age groups perhaps, but is there an age that coaches should start working on all these skills with their players? Is it something that you do with your players?

[Warren]
I think, you know, introducing, intercepting from when they start playing football, increased defending technical skills as they grow, adding more tactical elements to it as they get older. So for me, from the second they start playing football, I suppose in an academy, in a more structured environment. Kids are not going to be the most physical, are they? But what they can do is learn how to read the game, learn where the ball might go to, learn to be on the front foot, to be ready to step in and intercept. So, it reduces intercepting from as early as they can play some sort of organised football, really.

[Louise]
So I guess it's perhaps just how you introduce it in the language that you use, maybe? Or the games that you use, perhaps?

[Warren]
Yeah, I mean, I think naturally if you've got a directional game, you're going to get defended. So those intercepting moments are going to be when you're going to be playing against, you know, you might be playing 3v3 or even a 2v2, you're going to get interceptions. So again, positioning, trying to explain to the player that they're defending their goal, so they need to position themselves where they are, protecting their goal, but be mindful of where your opponent's players are at the same time. So if you've got those two things in mind, that's what you're trying to get into the player and then it's up to them to try and understand and experience that and realise that if I stand over the left side of the pitch and the goal's in the middle and they keep coming through me, well I'm not protecting the goal. So sometimes I think players, you know, players are going to develop at all different stages but if you break it down as simple as that as to what they're protecting and also what is the thing that's going to score in that goal, that might just sort of allude them to position themselves right.

[Louise]
Can you give our listeners some top tips for how they can work on defending with younger players and those at grassroots level?

[Warren]
Yeah, if you want more attacking and defending actions, you just put less players on the pitch. You know, I see some kids playing in games now where it's a 7v7 or an 8v8. For me, 1v1, 2v2s, 3v3s, 3v4s, 3v5s, stuff like that is going to enhance lots of exposure to defending and give people more opportunity to practice, certainly younger kids anyway.

[Louise]
And then, can you talk us through how you would work on defending with different age groups? Is there certain levels or different things that change through the age group?

[Warren]
Yeah, I just think it's small steps really. I think the first thing you need to do with a young player when you're talking about defending, and I've alluded to this many times, is that you're defending the goal. That's the first thing. After that is about the way they move effectively around the pitch to stop the opposition from scoring. So I'd look at their footwork, I'd look at their balance, I'd look at, when you talk about balance, I'd look at their way, how they move and the ability to move. Some are going to be a bit more mobile than others. So I suppose when you're working with young players, you need to identify what their strengths and weaknesses are and then highlight the fact that they need to defend the goal, but they need to move smoothly to try and get near to the ball, get tight to the player, stop them from turning. So there's some real simple basic principles that you'll give them as they're defending and as they're growing up. And as you go along, it becomes a bit more of a tactical element with the technical element as well. Things like when to mark space, when to mark the player, how to physically use your body, you know, to unbalance your opponent, recovering back into position to be effective. So it just evolves as you go up the ladder from why it's from foundation to YDP to PDP.

[Louise]
So I guess it's almost like knowing knowing your players as well and how like what information they're ready for at that time as well.

[Warren]
Yeah, because players grow at different levels. You might have a nine-year-old who just gets it and you can start introducing some stuff that an 11-year-old will do. Whereas you might get a slow burner who's 9 and by the time he's 12, he still doesn't get it. But that still doesn't mean that they're not going to get it at 16. It just means it might take a little bit more time and their body hasn't developed and maturated as well as maybe the other person may have. So you need to keep that in mind as well. Once the game gets quicker, the older they get, it's more important that players physical condition is good to be able to deal with defending moments. So as the game gets quicker, obviously, and the more physical it gets, you know, you really need to make sure you play as a condition to be able to deal with that.

[Jamie]
We've covered quite a lot there, Warren. That's brilliant. Now this is a bit of a two-part question here. So we can come back to either part of it if needs be. But firstly, I was thinking if you could talk us through our six core capabilities and explain how they can help players develop their defending skills. And then secondly, can you talk us through the before, during and after framework and explain why that's important as well?

[Warren]
Okay, so for me, the six capabilities are mainly used for an attacking tool, but can still be used as a defending lens as well. So scanning being the most important for a defender, seeing what's around them, seeing where and how they need to mark the player. Positioning and timing also fits in well with defending. So again, like I've mentioned quite a lot in this podcast. Positioning yourself is really important. And the timing as to when you might get tight or when you might drop off, depending where there's pressure or no pressure on the ball. Movement. So being an efficient mover helps and having technical ability to defend is key. Deception can also be used for smart defending to get the advantage on the attacking player. So if I'm marking a player 1v1 and I kind of faint to make the first move, that may unbalance them and all of a sudden I can step in. So that bit of deception there might really help. Or If I'm keeping a high line and I kind of take a couple of steps back, thinking the striker's now got space to run it, and then I quickly take a couple of steps forward, that might be deceptive again to try and catch him offside. So yeah, I think the six capabilities can be used effectively for defending too. Final question being, your observation skills need to be on point so that you can see the before, during and after. So the before is prepping yourself to being into the right position. The during is the jewel where do I use my body? Do I step in? Do I get in front? And the after is going to be if we've cleared the ball, it's going to be getting out of pitch. If I'm beaten, it's going to be recovering into a position where I can be effective again.

[Jamie]
That's brilliant. That's fascinating. And those tools are really effective for coaches to be able to use and just kind of getting players aware of kind of what they need to do to be able to be an effective defender. Looking back at everything we've discussed and we've really covered a lot of stuff, can you summarise your key top tips that you want coaches to take away from this episode?

[Warren]
The plan do with you is going to be a big one for me. Make sure your observation skills are on point. If you can't see it, you can't coach it. So they're two massive ones for me. Try and keep practices directional with goals because although players play with possession, having a goal in a direction makes it a bit more fun. I think the good analogy about, for a defender, out of possession, is to always be inside looking out rather than outside looking in. For me, that was a massive one that helped me. The big thing with players, like play every game like it's your last game, train like it's your last game. For coaches, being adaptable, try and create a inclusive environment so that players can express themselves. That would be a big one for me. Make sure that if you want lots of attacking and defending moments, box to box areas, small numbers, lots of moments of attacking and defending, which can obviously enhance the player's ability to be able to defend or attack.

[Louise]
Well thanks for that Warren, it's been really useful and I think it'd be really great for our listeners to be able to try and put some of this into practice. So we've been asking our guests to give our listeners a coaching challenge. So is it, have you got a challenge that you'd like to give our listeners based on defending?

[Warren]
So the challenge I'm going to set their coaches today is going to be in your next session or in your next training game Can you reverse your lens? So what I mean by reversing your lens is we talk about on, around, away from the ball. Can you look away, around, and on the ball? Because what is going on away from the ball is gonna have a massive effect as to what's going on on the ball. So that would be my challenge. It's really easy to watch TV and watch the ball as it moves but look away from it and look at other players and where they position themselves that may have an effect on the ball.

[Louise]
And it'd be really good for people to kind of discuss that on the community and kind of see what their findings are or like if they're trying it out anything in their sessions like what comes with that and kind of so yeah thank you for that.

[Jamie]
Yeah brilliant.

[Warren]
The final bit I'd add to that is watch the game as a coach and not as a supporter. All supporters watch the ball. That's where their focus is, but try and watch it as a coach. Broaden your lens, pull away from the ball and see the bigger picture.

[Jamie]
Great, thanks for that Warren. And we're coming up to the end of the show now Warren. So just wondering, do you have a defending practice that you could give our listeners to try?

[Warren]
For a defending session, put two penalty boxes facing each other. I'd put in within that session, I'd probably put in, I could start it small and evolve it. So I'd start it with maybe one defender, one attacker in both boxes. So it'd be a two V two game with two goalkeepers, two penalty boxes. And then to evolve that, I then start working with two defenders, so two center backs against two strikers in both boxes. So a four v four game. And then again, growing that I put in a back four. So you've got four defenders, four attackers in one box and the same in the other box. So you've got an eight v eight game. So Obviously growing that will make it look more like a game with sort of realism, relevance and repetition of lots of moments of the game of attacking and defending. So that's kind of the best sort of session I'd do it. I'd start it small, get the repetition in with the individual, grow it into a pair, grow it into a unit and obviously once I can take that component out of it I then grow it into the game.

[Jamie]
Brilliant well that's absolutely everything Warren thank you very much for your time today we really appreciate it and we've covered so much stuff But there's loads of great top tips to take away there. We really appreciate your time. Hopefully you've enjoyed it.

[Warren]
Yeah, it's been really, really good. Thanks, Louise. Thanks, Jamie. Appreciate it.

[Jamie]
Right, well, that is all we have time for today. But don't forget to check out the episode description for the transcription of this episode and for all the links to our platforms. There you will be able to click through to the England Football Community. This is where you can post your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast or just simply to connect with loads of wonderful coaches.

[Louise]
Yep, we'd love to help you out with your coaching questions, so please do go and check it out. We'll be back soon with another episode of Coachcast, so if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode. From all of us at England Football Learning, thanks for listening.