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[Jamie]
Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. Today we're chatting to the FA's Claire Daniels and John Falwell to talk about the future of youth football. Claire, great to have you back on the show and Folly, welcome to Coachcast for the first time. It's great to have you both with us today. How are you?
[Clare]
Really good, Thank you.
[Folly]
Hi, yeah, good, thank you.
[Louise]
Really good to have you both on and welcome back, Claire. Just to remind everybody what everybody does. So for you, Claire, we've obviously spoke to you before, but if you can just remind everybody again, tell us what your role is and then John, follow after you.
[Clare]
Yeah, no problem. So I'm Senior National Development Manager for Solutions and Innovations in our Grassroots Division. So my role is to develop new initiatives, workforce training that's fit for purpose for all three of our pathways.
[Folly]
Hi, I'm John Foley, I'm commonly known as Foley. I'm Head of Grassroots Coach Development, I Lead a team of people who work in the regions helping grassroots coaches with a real mission to diversify the workforce, get more female coaches and more coaches from the representative groups in, as well as a team of people helping teachers and coaches who are working in schools.
[Jamie]
Brilliant, thanks for that. Now just before we do discover a little bit more about what we're going to be talking about today, as this is a coaching podcast, coaches could be on the way to training right now while they're tuning into this, so we always like to give them some good advice at the top of the show.
[Louise]
Yep, so this is your arrival activity and I think you're both going to do this together, aren't you? So basically we're going to give you 30 seconds and we'll ask you to give us as many top coaching tips as you can. Are you both up for the challenge?
[Clare]
Absolutely.
[Folly]
Definitely.
[Louise]
Okay, so when the music starts, you can begin.
[Clare]
Okay, I'll kick us off then, Folly. I'll say you can gather feedback from your players at the end of the session with thumbs up, thumbs down.
[Folly]
Absolutely, and at the end of the session, let's hope they're all smiling and sweaty.
[Clare]
Next one I'll throw in is why not have a playbook of all the great ideas that you love to use and get the kids to pick the ones they want to play?
[Folly]
Yeah, if in doubt, just get them playing a game. Even better, play 2v2, 3v3s.
[Jamie]
Get that in there. Love it.
[Louise]
Great teamwork there.
[Jamie]
Yeah, well done. It's difficult to get them in when you do it solo, never mind teaming up to do it, so well done with that. But yeah thanks for that, and I suppose really the best place to start now Claire is, can you tell us what the Future of Youth Football project is?
[Clare]
Yeah of course I can. So I'm going to start with like I guess the ambition and I would imagine this ambition will resonate a lot with the listeners because we're looking to provide a full and active game for every child every week that ensures that they get maximum physical activity returns, skill development and technical actions for every player. So that's a big ambition and we've broken that down into four outcomes. How do we give every child a full and active game? By doing that, how can we help improve the health of the nation? We've been through so much strife and struggle over the last few years, especially in terms of physical, mental and emotional well-being. We need to just make sure that if someone's choosing football, they actually get to play football and as much football as we can possibly give them. And by doing that, we can future-proof the game. The game's in a great place, it continues to grow, but wouldn't it be great if we're still in the same position in 10, 15 years' time? And then the final piece is just to ensure we can find a solution for heading to build into this process.
[Louise]
Really great stuff and really important stuff to be thinking about. Who's been involved in this?
[Folly]
This project's been going on now for just over a year I think Claire hasn't it? And it's been a long process of engaging a number of people across the FA. Internally that's been the technical department, obviously ourselves in FA education, Claire's colleagues in grassroots division, as well as the football regulation department. More widely we've worked with our grassroots stakeholders, County FAs, leagues and clubs. We went out to the stakeholders and held a roadshow in March to consult with those people. We've also spoken to other federations, the Dutch FA, the German FA, our colleagues in Belgium and other European federations, as well as also speaking to other sports to learn what they may have done to modify their sports over the years. So a wide variety of people that we've spoken to so far.
[Jamie]
And what areas of the game does this project focus on?
[Folly]
This is mainly focusing on our affiliated football offer, both across the boys, girls and mixed pathways. And it's the first time actually that we've looked at the formats across the whole of the game, including the female pathway. Clay will talk later on about the reviews we've done previously and that's predominantly focused on the boys' pathway in previous reviews. We are looking at age groups from four all the way through to 18 and obviously it will be across our grassroots football but also our schools affiliated football as well.
[Louise]
How important is it to review our youth game? What impact have previous reviews had?
[Clare]
I think that's a really interesting question and it's quite hard to believe actually that it was 12 years ago since we did the last big review. And like I said, since that point, society has changed a lot in activity and obesity rates of continually becoming a challenge in communities. As Folly mentioned, other nations have been making changes and looking at changes. Our technical game is continually evolving. We've seen that with the success that both of our national teams are in a position where they're able to win. And we're looking at this for the first time for the whole game with the mixed and the female pathway. But one of the reasons to do this is continually challenge ourselves and to make sure that the game that we're providing is fit for purpose for this generation of young person. So if we go back to 1999, that was when mini soccer was first introduced. And that was for children under 10s. But it was the first time that we used, you know, smaller pitches with scaled goalposts and fewer players. And then it went to 2010. And that was the big review where what you're playing now is the output of that evaluation where, you know, we've got those fundamental changes where we saw a gradual progression of playing formats from 5v5 to 7v7 to 9v9 to 11v11. And that was complemented by, I guess, several rule changes and flexible competition programme. And these modifications were designed to a support player development, but also trying to support and address adult behaviour training and matches. And we had a whole suite of coach education modules that complemented it, the youth modules. I know that everyone will hear those words and probably have a smile on their face. I know I remember delivering them, and it was really, really, really enjoyable coach education journey. And then we come to 2022. And can we look at the game now and say, we give a full and active game for every child every week? It gives them those maximum physical activity returns, skill development and technical actions and the scope of both of those is going to really inform how the game is played and that's what this review is really, really going to look at in detail.
[Jamie]
Can you kind of talk us through the different phases of this project and explain to our listeners what progress has been made so far?
[Clare]
Yeah, like Folly said, this has been ongoing now for over a year and we've done a lot. We've done the largest, I guess, review of grassroots formats ever in terms of a grassroots evaluation. So we've had over 450 games recorded by Liverpool John Moores University, and those games have all been coded to look at the number of physical activity returns that players get, but also the number of technical actions. That's provided a lot of data for us to look at so we can really understand what happens when you put more or less players on different playing sizes, playing pitches, so a 5v5 on a 3v3 pitch, a 5v5 on a 5v5 pitch, a 5v5 on a 7v7 pitch. We can categorically look at these different returns now and understand well if we do this, this is what we'll get as a return and because the sample size was so so broad that they're really valid. We've also gone out to all of our European colleagues and understood what they're doing and why they're doing it. We've been out, as Follies said, to listen, engage with the game, to get their ideas of what's working and what isn't. We've had ideas shared with us around the variations of laws, from throw-ins to dribble-ins, smaller formats, sidelined activities, how we gain more youth voice, the challenges of playing up and playing down. And we want to listen because It's not just our game, it's everybody's game. And now we're moving into, I guess, the next phase of the project, which is called Test and Discuss, which is where we're looking at the formats, the laws of the game, have some soft recommendations, hopefully ready by the end of November. And we'll be coming out to 16 counties to share and discuss these recommendations so that we really hear from those of you that are volunteering your time what you think.
[Louise]
And with the trials, who was involved with the trials and how have they gone?
[Folly]
Yeah, as Claire said, we've been working with Liverpool John Moores University and we recorded over 450 games. It's one of the biggest studies that's ever been done of its type. We've worked across the country at different venues engaging grassroots clubs and players aged 5 to 13, both boys and girls. And essentially we looked at two things. When we changed the number of players and the size of the pitch, what was the physical activity dosage? So did that increase or decrease? And what was the variety and volume of technical actions that the players are involved in and some of the results that we've had have been fantastic to see and that really help us inform the decisions that go forward in this in this project. So all in all it's been a really positive process so far and we feel like the data is really going to help us move forward to make some key decisions for youth football in the future.
[Jamie]
That's really fascinating listening to you both talk about this, yeah, a massive amount of games, is it 450 games? It sounds really interesting but can you summarise Where are we now and why are we telling our listeners about this? Why are we sharing this insight today?
[Clare]
As I said, Jamie, this is everyone's game. And it's really important that everybody is as passionate as we are about providing children with the best experience that they can possibly have when it comes to football. You know, when every child turns up, this should be the best part of their week. And any changes that we make needs to guarantee that that remains the same for children that are currently playing, but potentially new children that join the game, children that may be joining the game at a later stage in their life. We need to ensure as the national game that football can manage all of those variables. But it's really important that we can hear what people think about what we're suggesting. We've already been out once, you know, in that listen, engage phase earlier in the year and taking those ideas forward that the game has shared with us. But, you know, this is the next opportunity to hear the voice of the people that keep our game running week in, week out. And we are going to be in a position where we're going to share some of the details of the format study that Folly's spoken about so we can show them this is what happens if we move to this format, this is what we get, this is where things go up, this is where things go down and almost set them the challenge of how would you solve this problem, what would you do differently Because there'll be some great coaches out there that have a really good perspective on the game that will really help shape the future of football in our country.
[Jamie]
That's fantastic and I suppose it's important to stress at the moment that work is still ongoing and there's still a little bit to go before anything is actually implemented. But can you talk us through kind of what are the values of youth football and the underpinning philosophy that's coming out of this project?
[Clare]
Yes, I think it's come out really loud and clear that we need an underpinning philosophy that's going to last the test of time. And that's going to be built on a foundation of how we can use the spirit of the game. And that's what we're talking about, that emotional connection that someone has when they come to football. The good bits, the emotion when it's, you know, 30 seconds to go and you're 1-0 down and you're playing in that in that battle or in the same instance, you know, you're there on a Saturday morning putting the goals up when it's freezing cold and you're trying to click the nets in. All of those things encapsulate part of the spirit of the game but with that you also have an authenticity of a football experience. So having the goals there, having a competition, having a challenge, that's what we mean by the spirit of the game. But and this runs through everything that we do, it's why most of us are involved is this spirit but it all needs to be encapsulated by having a player-centered approach. By that we mean putting the children first, they've got some pre-existing rights and they should experience those rights through the spirit of the game. And that comes through how as coaches, as adults, we create an environment that's safe and fun and inclusive. We provide playing opportunities between the volume, the variety and opportunities they have to play, and a coaching offer that is used to help develop different strategies to ensure that that player is always at the heart of everything that we do. And if we can get those five things absolutely nailed on maths, we will be categorically ensuring that we are number one, developing the person because everyone is a person before they become a player. We'll have more people falling in love with the game and that will mean further on down the line we will have people that are playing for longer, staying for longer, they may choose to become a referee, a fan, a coach, all of those different elements will come into play. Because we're increasing the number of technical actions and physical activity dosage, there'll be more and better players, which ultimately means we're going to be having a really healthy game that's grown and retained as many people in the system as we possibly can.
[Jamie]
And you've touched on quite a lot already there, but are there any other further benefits that this will bring at all?
[Clare]
I just think it will keep us fit for purpose in where the game is at the moment. Like we said, it's been 12 years since we've made any changes to the game and we're not saying the game is in a bad place. It's not. It's in a great place. So we're just looking to go from good to greater. And I think we should always aspire to continually look to evolve the game for the reasons I've just outlined previously.
[Louise]
Brilliant. So like With the trials having taken place and you've analysed the results, what are the key themes that have come out from this with regards to formats? What does the data say the future game formats could look like for youth football?
[Folly]
Yeah, it'd be fair to say we haven't made any decisions yet. The information that we've gathered has started to, I suppose, point us in some directions that we'd like to, as I say, come out and speak to the game about. Three key aspects has come through so far And the first thing is that we want to see smaller formats earlier and for longer, so that players experience, you know, their start of the game is in a smaller format and that they are playing smaller formats for a longer period of time. We also know that the importance of variety for players experience to try different formats across that age group whereas at the moment they're locked into a certain format for a couple of years so we're definitely keen to look at that variety of format for different age groups And then it's also about increasing playing time. And this is twofold really. One is about the number of players that are actually playing on the pitch, but also how can we adapt the game to make sure that the ball stays in the pitch longer and therefore their experience and having lots more technical actions and their physical activity returns will also increase. So smaller formats for longer, increasing playing time and then the importance of variety across the age groups.
[Louise]
And what would you say the benefits of all of this do you think?
[Folly]
I think the main benefit will come back to what Claire's spoken about really is that you know this will hopefully increase the physical activity levels and therefore have a benefit of the health and well-being of the nation and our future generation, if they're having more of a go, if kids are getting more time to have a go and have more goes at doing certain things, passing, kicking, shooting, scoring, defending, tackling, then they're going to get better and hopefully they'll, their experience will increase and enhance and therefore they'll stay in the game longer. So that's ultimately what's driving this, and that's, as Claire's articulated really well, that's the sort of mission for this project.
[Jamie]
And again, I mean, I stressed when I asked the last question in terms of that work is still ongoing, but do you feel like there might be any changes to the laws of the game based on the back of this at all?
[Folly]
I think it's a great opportunity for us to review the laws of the game and also make sure that we consider the different age groups and the different formats. And it would be wrong for us not to look at the laws of the game at the same time. We believe that there are certain things that we can do that will increase playing time. And what that means is the ball stay in the pitch longer. So the things that we are looking at are the maximum time the ball can stay in would be sort of restarts, throw-ins, corners, goal kicks, those types of things. How might they look differently across the different formats and age groups? Clearly, we're considering heading and being responsible as a governing body around what that might look like and where we introduce heading across the age groups. And we're also looking at the ability to play players up and down based on individual sort of physical maturation, development, to see that again that players are having the same opportunity as others and obviously being able to play down could be the right thing to do for some players and being able to play up could also be the right thing to do and some of that has been about opportunities in more rural areas as well as obviously the physical demands that we've spoken about.
[Louise]
In an ideal world what would you want football to look like in the future?
[Clare]
I think that is a really good question Louise. For me it's how can we maximise the time that children get to play games at a weekend. With the spaces that we have available, how can we get less kids standing on the sideline waiting for their turn and get more kids with their boots on the grass getting that spirit of football and that player-centered approach and that might mean we have to look at how you know is that even possible but wouldn't it be great if we could, we talk about you know football being the best bit of your week, well is it the best bit if you're the one that's always on the subs bench all the time? If you pay to go to the cinema you'd be pretty naffed off if you only got to watch the last 10 minutes of the film every week. So why should football be any different? We've got such a good cohort of coaches across the country that are adaptable and flexible and put our players first. I think they'll be really up for that challenge of how we can get them all playing because if we can do that we're going to get more better players which benefits everybody.
[Jamie]
So we've heard all about it now and it really does sound fascinating and it sounds like a fantastic idea and we're really looking forward to the next steps but what happens now? What is the next step realistically?
[Folly]
Yeah so as we mentioned earlier we're going to move into the test and discuss stage of the project. So we'll be coming out around 16 counties across the country to discuss some of the findings that we've got, discuss some of the ideas that we have and to get further sort of consultation from the grassroots audience. So this will be leagues, county fays, clubs, coaches, club officials to help sort of refine our soft recommendations that we hope to take through our internal process come the end of November time. So I suppose the plea is, if there's an event in your area, please come along and give us your views and play a part in shaping the future of youth football.
[Clare]
Come and have a chat. Let's have a coffee and a chat.
[Folly]
Let's have a cuppa.
[Louise]
It's a really good opportunity, isn't it, to get involved. Will there be any support to help clubs and coaches implement any potential recommendations when the time comes?
[Clare]
We're committed to supporting our game to implement any changes that do come out of this process. But you know, at this moment in time, everything is still organic, it's still evolving. So it's difficult to say what that help and support will look like until everything is finalized. But if we do make changes, we will look to help in the best way that we can.
[Jamie]
And looking back at everything we've discussed so far, can you kind of summarise the key points that you really want coaches to take away from this episode?
[Clare]
Yeah, absolutely. Just to remind everybody why we're doing this, it's to provide a full and active game for every child, every week, that ensures maximum physical activity, skill development, and technical actions for all. We spoke about it at the beginning, and that is the key driver with this. Football needs to be the best part of everybody's week, and we're going from looking to move from good to great. Game is in a good place now. We're just looking to future proof it. And if we can make some subtle changes to get more kids playing.
[Louise]
Yeah, it's been really interesting hearing about the project and kind of where we go in and all the steps involved in it. Just to kind of give something to the listeners out there, get them involved and get them trying some stuff. Are you able to set a coaching challenge for them and then hopefully they can go and discuss how it's gone on the community?
[Folly]
Yeah, absolutely. Hopefully it's come through in the discussion that, you know, this project is all about player-centered and being really player-centered. So the challenge for the listeners is, can you think of three ways to give players more ownership and greater engagement? I'll be looking out for the responses.
[Louise]
Thanks for that.
[Jamie]
Yeah, cheers. We are coming up to the end of the show now, but it does mean it's time for our Swift session feature. And today, we've actually got two Swift sessions. So we're going to go through this twice.
[Louise]
Yep, so as at the top of the show, it's a 30 second challenge, but this one we're going to ask you to describe to us a session idea in those 30 seconds, but you've each got 30 seconds this time, so you won't have to share the time. Are you both up for the challenge? And who wants to go first?
[Folly]
Yeah, go on then.
[Clare]
Yeah, Folly's off first. Okay. No pressure, Folly.
[Folly]
Okay, so this one is called the Playground Game. It's my favourite because it's really chaotic, it gets everybody involved and Essentially you're trying to recreate the playground at break time. So you have a maybe a 5v5 or 6v6 game going this way. And then you would have a 2v2 or 1v1 or 3v3, two games going across that game. And none of the players will have any bibs on at all so it'll be absolute chaos.
[Louise]
Perfect timing. Okay Claire over to you. Are you ready?
[Clare]
I'm ready.
[Louise]
Okay set the timer up and...
[Clare]
Okay so this game is called the Final Countdown. Do-do-do-do, could have a theme tune if you wanted it. So, what you need is a square, split the square into two halves, and you're gonna be playing a four v four. We call it a red half and a blue half. Four players on each side, each team has a ball each. They play for one minute and when the timer stops, if both balls are in the blue half the red team would score two points. If there was a ball in either half it would be one point and you repeatedly play the game for 45 seconds, 30 seconds, Game done.
[Jamie]
Wonderful. Folly's gesturing that that's gone over 30 seconds. I think you've got in there.
[Clare]
VAR time,
[Louise]
a little bit of extra rolling for stoppage. Perfect. Very succinct, both of you.
[Jamie]
And love the theme tune as well. Getting that in there.
[Louise]
Extra point for the theme tune.
[Clare]
Yay, I win!
[Folly]
I'll give you that one.
[Jamie]
Yeah, thanks to both of you and two ideas for our listeners to take away today, which is always fantastic. But yeah, thank you very much for your time. And it's been really brilliant, you know, hearing what is coming up and what the future of youth football might look like. It sounds exciting, it sounds brilliant, and we're kind of looking forward to seeing the next steps and hearing what people think as well. And you're both obviously very passionate, very close to the project and very passionate about it, and that comes across. I suppose just before we finish, do you want to kind of give your kind of opinions on how important this is to you and to the future of youth football?
[Clare]
Yeah, of course. Like I've seen how, I guess, how positively the game's changed since we did the format review and remembering how passionate everybody was when we made those first changes. But if we look back at when that was initially discussed and where we are now as a game, everybody would have taken this 12 years ago because of the such impact that it's had. And this is just another opportunity to look at the game and make some further tweaks to move the game from good to great. I think it's really exciting and presents, like I said, an opportunity to get more kids playing on a regular basis, which for me is the main driver. If you come to football, you should be able to play football. And if we can be really clever in terms of how we can increase that football mix every Saturday and every Sunday, then that's got to be good for everybody, right?
[Folly]
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Claire, and I've been involved in grassroots football for over 30 years now as a volunteer as well as in my current role. And there's over a million players play every week And we have such a responsibility to make sure that their experience is as good as it can be. And for the future generation, it's, you know, we're custodians of the game. We need to try and leave it in a better place. The reviews that have happened previously have evolved it and it's got better each time. And this is just another opportunity to improve it, to make the experience as good as possible, to make sure everyone can have a full and active part in the game. So it's a great opportunity for us. And if we can evolve it again, it moves on another level, then hopefully we've done a good thing.
[Jamie]
Great, thanks for that. Really appreciate it. And again, thank you very much for your time and sharing the insight with us all today.
[Folly]
Thank you.
[Clare]
Thank you.
[Jamie]
A really interesting conversation there with Folly and Claire. What would be your reflections on our discussion, Louise?
[Louise]
It was just really interesting hearing all about the project and kind of just the thought process behind it and that we're trying to be proactive about kind of making sure that we do maintain the level that youth football's at at the moment and kind of keep building on that and keep growing for the future. That's what I took away as a reflection, I think.
[Jamie]
Yeah, and it kind of is exciting, you know, you mentioned that it's been a while since the last review of the game and obviously thinking of the impact that the reviews of the game have previously had. It's quite exciting to think how this is going to impact and shape the game moving forward, you know, and a lot of games, a lot of data that's been taken in, so a lot of ideas that's based on those findings and ultimately just, you know, We have time for today, But don't forget to check out the episode description for the transcription of this episode and for all the links to our platforms. There you'll be able to click through to the England Football Community. This is where you can post your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast or just simply to connect with loads of wonderful coaches.
[Louise]
Yep, we'd love to help you out with your coaching questions so please do check it out. We'll be back soon with another episode of Coachcast, so if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don’t miss an episode.
From us all at England Football Learning, thanks for listening!