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(Jamie]

Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. Today we're chatting to Mike Nolan, a mentor developer for the FA, to discover how mentoring can help you become the coach and the person you want to be. We'll also get his insight on neurodiversity to help us consider how to make coaching more accessible. Well, hi Mike, welcome to Coachcast for the first time. How are you?

[Mike]

Very good, thank you. Good morning. Thank you for having me here.

[Louise]

Really good to have you with us. Firstly, we'd like to find out a little bit about you and your role. Can you tell us what it is that you do?

[Mike]

So as an FA mentor developer, part of that role is as a coach mentor, you know, supporting coaches in their environment, but also as a mentor developer, working with our lead Andy Summers on training mentors, whether they're in the grassroots environment, in our clubs or the FA coach mentor workforce, and rolling out CPD events across the country in the counties to help and support that.

[Louise]

Perfect, sounds like a really interesting role that you've got there.

[Mike]

Yeah it is, I meet some really good people, working with some really good people all the time. I've been in the role for about 12 years as a mentor and recently in the last few years as a mentor developer and it's been like 12 years of CPD for me, you know, working with really good people.

[Jamie]

I am plenty of years of experience for us to tap into here for the podcast. So we're looking forward to doing that. But just before we do kind of discover a little bit more about you, Mike, and your experiences, As this is a coaching podcast, coaches could be on the way to training while tuning into this. So we always like to give them some great advice at the top of the show.

[Louise]

Yep. So we call this your arrival activity, give you a bit of a chance to warm up and we'd like to give you the challenge to give us as many top coaching tips as you can in 30 seconds. Are you up for that?

[Mike]

Yeah, I'll give it a go.

[Louise]

Okay, right when the timer starts you can begin.

[Mike]

Okay, so consider your words carefully, you know the impact language has on people, have a clear philosophy on how you want to play football and also how the people within that are treated. Link match day and training. Have a good plan but be flexible. Find a good fabric conditioner for the washing machine so your bibs are fresh and put a tumble dryer sheet in the bib bag.

[Louise]

I love that. I've not had that one before.

[Jamie]

No, we've not had that one before. It looks great.

[Mike]

Fresh bibs, happy players.

[Jamie]

That is absolutely right. Brilliant. Yeah, perfect. Yeah, thanks for that. Well, we'll get started into the main part of the show now, Mike. And we always start this by asking our guests, what was your first experience of football like?

[Mike]

The first picture of me with a football is me aged two with a sheepdog on my granddad's farm. So I think football has always been around, you know, playing in school, Gaelic football and football in Ireland and just playing with friends in the village and then going on to play at school and so on but just always loving the game, you know, that was really it.

[Louise]

Brilliant. So as well as being a coach mentor, we know that you do coach too in your spare time. What was your first experience of coaching like?

[Mike]

I think like a lot of people that got involved, I was helping out somebody who was coaching my children. So it's a while back now, but they were my eldest son playing for his school team and just helping out with the goals and so on, and then with the warm-ups and then did my level one and as it was then in level two and just got the bug for it really, you know, really enjoyed it.

[Louise]

Yeah. And what is it that you like about coaching?

[Mike]

Well, there's two aspects for me. I think the first thing is, you know, from a developmental piece, if you've empowered a player on match day to have the confidence to try something that you've worked on in training and they do it and it comes off and you catch their eye, you give them a thumbs up and you get that smile. I think any coach can relate to that because you can bottle that and keep it with you for, you know, when things are not so good. In the three point game, if you're working with adults, I think I enjoy looking at the problem the opposition is trying to give us, trying to solve that and in particular at half time, you know, supporting the players to give us a, get a performance out of them. So I think that development and the match day a bit, you know, that that's what gives you the results at the end if you look after those two things.

[Jamie]

And thinking more kind of like your experiences that have led to you here. Can you kind of give us a bit of an insight into that journey to you becoming a mentor developer?

[Mike]

Well, before there was a mentor program, I connected with a few coaches on the old FA, it was a FA Coaches Association website. And we just started talking about coaching and eventually met up. It was around the time the Youth Award was coming up, but we didn't realise that at the time, but that was probably what you'd call a community of practice and we were probably mentoring each other without realising it. And that developed into, I'm in Bedfordshire in the county and we set up like informal coaching groups doing sessions talking about coaching. And then when a role came up, it was advertised for an FA coach mentor, someone suggested I apply and I was fortunate to be in the pilot when there was 50 of us, one per county at the time, and then it expanded. So that was really in years then of working, you know, in D&I and as a disability mentor, became a support mentor and then now a mentor developer.

[Louise]

So it sounds like you've jumped through quite a few different areas of the...

[Mike]

Yeah, I think mentoring is becoming more embedded in everything and we're really keen to make sure that underrepresented groups get the support they need and are aware of it as well as just general coaching, you know, making sure that people have some support networks out there.

[Jamie]

And just for anybody that isn't too aware of what a mentor is to help their understanding, Can you kind of tell us what a mentor is, does and how they can really help coaches?

[Mike]

I'll start by saying what a mentor isn't. And we don't go in there to fix somebody. We're not there to force you into a template or impose our values or beliefs on you, the way you should play football or treat people. But what we're trying to do is we're trying to work with coaches in their environment, you know, in their context, get them to help them to recognise their own strengths and attributes and stretch them and develop them and empower them to have control of their own learning and develop themselves so they can develop themselves as people, as coaches, so that they can develop better players and better people at the end of the day.

[Jamie]

What would that, if you can kind of like paint a picture of what maybe a mentoring session could look like? So if you come in to see somebody at their own club in their own environment, what would that look like? What sort of support would you be giving?

[Mike]

Well, I suppose we'd need a couple of hours to run through them all, but it's very individually based because it's needs based. It's based on the mentees needs, if you like. And we have a mentoring framework where we look at building rapport, observation, giving feedback and then reflection. So it could be that on match day you're looking at how the subs are rotated, how you're linking training to match day, could be helping you deal with the parents. It could be even having a coffee away from the football ground and talking about your philosophy or supporting on your qualification you're undergoing at the moment. So it's really quite wide, you know, and different styles of mentors, but working within that mentoring framework and having the needs of the mentee at the heart of it all.

[Louise]

Sounds like a really useful and kind of productive way of kind of developing.

[Mike]

Well, it is powerful because I think a lot of people don't always recognise their own strengths and sometimes they just need a sounding board, somebody to bounce stuff off, and sometimes they need a little bit of a stretch or a challenge and just being, learning to be reflective, giving you the tools so that when the mentor isn't there, you're independent. You know, you can, you can observe, you can process things and you can develop yourself to do that with the players as well, to make them more autonomous.

[Louise]

And your role is actually developing other mentors. So can anyone be a mentor?

[Mike]

I think that if you're interested in other people fulfilling their potential, if you are passionate about developing people and them being at the heart of it, rather than your own ego or your own trying to, as I say, impose yourself or fit someone around your template or people being the way they should be. It's something that we do with people. It's not something we do to people. So if you've got that attitude, I think you can.

[Louise]

And what kind of skills or attributes would you think that make a good mentor? You've kind of mentioned some.

[Mike]

Yeah, I've mentioned some there in the framework, but you've got to be, you know, patient, you've got to be honest, you've got to be open, you've got to be able to set boundaries, you've got to be a good listener, resilient, and also you've got to be very self-aware, you know, of your own biases, your own lens, the things that make you what you are and how you may perceive things, you know, so try and be empathetic as well.

[Jamie]

Do you kind of have any advice to help coaches develop some of those skills at all?

[Mike]

Yeah, I think first of all, try and reflect on the things that you do, perhaps not just at football, but at work or at home or with other people. So you might be in the office and you've spoken to someone about a difficult task. You might be a bricklayer who's developed an apprentice. There's a whole lot of things that we do outside of football that could be mentoring. So recognise those skills. But then if you want to connect with other coaches, perhaps in that WhatsApp group at the weekend, instead of just leading with that, we won 4-0 and we lost 4-2, put something in like, you know, we were working on switching and play this week and in the first half we managed to do that six times really well. But then in the second half, the opposition figured it out. Next week, we're going to work on crossing to make the most of this and we won 4-0. And then maybe you might flush out someone who actually wants to talk about coaching rather than just defying themselves by the result. There's also the offers we have in counties around the mentoring framework so you can go on CPD and learn about that. You can get in touch with your county and try and see where they are on so that you can develop yourself and get interested in that. But the main thing is connecting with other coaches, you know, and if you get a group with three or four of you together, it might be at a CPD event where you know people are by almost by definition, they're learners and they're open. If you connect with them, then you might get a little group going and then if you had a mentor along to that to guide you, that would be even more powerful.

[Jamie]

Yeah, just picking up on what Owen's saying, like how powerful that actually is, like it is so important having, being able to reflect, but also with peers as well and being, because that's the only way really to develop yourself in any walk of life, isn't it?

[Mike]

Yeah, I think so. I think it's the most powerful way and, you know, we say that, you know, you've got formal learning, which is maybe, you know, 10% or 20% of it and then we go on, you know, the 70% is what you're doing away from it. And I think people do reflect and they spend a lot of time doing it, but they may not be doing it efficiently. If you have someone who's mentoring you can get more focused on it, you can have outcomes for it, you're not just thinking about things. A lot of people mix up a review with reflection, so they review something and that's what happened. So we talk about plan, do, review. We want to plan, do, review and then reflect. So it feeds into that cycle a little bit better.

[Louise]

And just to kind of go back to who a mentor might be, does someone need to be at a certain level to become a mentor?

[Mike]

In terms of coaching qualification? Yeah. Well, you could be a pro license or an A-license coach and a very good one, but not very good at mentoring or helping people. And likewise, you could have just completed your AFAC or your intro and very good at that. Now, I know FA coach mentors who are mentoring people in golf or in rowing or outside of sport altogether. So it's about that mentoring framework and those mentoring skill sets, that mentoring toolbox, if you can apply that. Now, of course, you may need to fill gaps in your own knowledge or the mentee might need to know some technical stuff or stuff around the course. And the thing there is about signposting or giving them the skills to go and learn that so it will embed deeper. Now that said, if you have a good knowledge of football and a good knowledge of the content of courses and things like principles of play and all of that, that's needed for observation of the game and so on. So, you know, it will help you if you've got a good knowledge of it. We've got some fantastic A licence coaches who are great mentors, you know, and we've got some fantastic UFSC level two mentors as well. So it's about blending those things and it's situational as well because it is needs based and it may be that for one coach that more knowledge might be helpful and for others might be about a different skill. But it's not necessary. I mean, we would say could a level one coach mentor a brain surgeon or a train driver? And I think they could.

[Louise]

Yeah, I guess it's like you say, it's all about the kind of framework that they work against, I guess.

[Mike]

Yeah, and it's about knowing the gaps and the things that you need to know.

[Louise]

So I've heard you say that supporting others is a great way to develop your own skills. So someone who might not feel quite ready to say, I want to be a mentor yet, Is there anything that they can do to kind of build the idea of mentoring into the development?

[Mike]

Yeah, I think I'd use the analogy of when a player starts to learn how to coach, they learn more about the game, you know. So if you're a coach and you learn a bit more about mentoring, it makes you a more effective coach. And to start on that would be, like I say, recognise some of your attributes, have a look online, we've got some bits on the community and that around mentoring. Look at the county when they're rolling out the CPD events. But just try and become aware of the connections you have with people and who's helpful and how you help people and just think, well, actually, that's part of mentoring. You know, that's part of helping somebody and try and make connections at your club with people. You know, there are some people that, you know, you walk past as you're going on the 3G and coming off and you don't have a conversation with them. And it's difficult when you've got, you might be coaching your own children or you're stuck for time. But if you can make a little bit of time perhaps to have a conversation with somebody around football and the challenges they have. And I think that's a good way to start.

[Jamie]

So if someone is interested in either getting a mentor or actually becoming a mentor themselves, how might they go about it?

[Mike]

I think you could speak to somebody at your club, you could speak to somebody at your county FA who will signpost you and there's a link on the England football website as an expression of interest and like I say it's it's something that feeds into a lot of aspects of your coaching. So try and reach out and do that.

[Jamie]

Now, Mike, it's been great to get an overview of mentoring and to hear all about your experiences, but we also want to tap into your knowledge of neurodiversity. Now, just to let the listeners know a little bit more background about Mike. Mike you have an extensive experience from your work in schools with neurodiverse pupils, you've coached players across multiple formats and levels of football as well and you deliver inclusion events for county FAs for coaches who may have one or more players with additional needs in their squad. So the term neurodiversity is something that you are very familiar with and we feel that it's really important that we all need to have a better understanding of it. So ready to start this kind of second half of the podcast, can you explain what we mean by neurodiversity, please?

[Mike]

So it's really important that when we're discussing something like this, that we agree terms and definitions, so we're not talking past each other. And The idea of using the term neurodiversity is really to show that different people have different ways of perceiving and processing the world around them. And we'd say somebody is neurodivergent or neurotypical and that's really a numbers game because you know we use the word typical for how most people experience the world. And by framing it in that way, we're not saying that one way is better, it's just different. If you use the analogy of handedness, so most people typically are right-handed. Many years ago if you were left-handed, that was wrong. You know, you'd be encouraged to use your right hand. The words for while you're left out, you're not using your right hand, it translates as sinister and gauche in other languages. So if you were ambidextrous using both hands, or like me, I use different hands for different tasks, you'd be outside the norm, as it were. But we would say now that we're in the same way that people think differently. Everyone's got a different fingerprint. Everybody's got a different wiring. So we say neurodiversity includes people who are, you know, thinking a little bit differently about the world. And it's an umbrella term, really, which catches some specific conditions like we might talk about dyslexia or being on the autistic spectrum. And even within within those, there's a wide range as well. So we're trying to use that umbrella term to cover all of that, but make it so that we realise that for some people, thinking differently is a real advantage in some contexts and in some places. Society or the setting of barriers against you kind of fulfilling your potential. So we're trying to recognise all of that without attaching a judgement on the way people think or act, if you know what I mean.

[Louise]

Yeah, and I think, I suppose for this episode it's quite hard to kind of ask all the questions that are going to cover everything, but I guess it's just having an awareness like you say that we're just looking at difference and kind of trying to think about other people before assuming.

[Mike]

Yeah, I think and in all of the answers that I give, whether it's about mentoring or neurodiversity, I should be saying it depends on the individual, it's individual based, but you know that's a given or it should be given in these conversations, but it's worth a point making all the time.

[Louise]

So would you say that there are specific differences that we need to consider between neurodiverse adults and children?

[Mike]

That's a good question and I think as we say about treating everyone as an individual first and perhaps somebody has a statement or a label that's used to describe a condition but that doesn't describe them as a person and within that we can make assumptions. So because I've worked with somebody who I think fits in that bucket, the next person that comes along isn't going to be the same as that. I think that with children at early ages, you may not, people may not recognise that you're neurodivergent. That may come to the fore later on. And it may be as an adult that you are very isolated because of, you know, socially you don't interact in the same way that other people do, whereas people are more accepting of children. As a child, there might be more support for you, and I'm generalizing of course, because some children don't have any support. But the support that you do have can fall away, you know, by the time you're 16 or 18 or going into adulthood. So that's a challenge. Some people who are neurodivergent, you know, in their 40s haven't realised that until recently or don't realise it at all. Some people have managed to mask things and learn how to act and that can become quite exhausting as well for adults. So there's a whole range of things that we need to consider. But a really important part is, which has to be thought of, is that anyone under 18 obviously comes under, they're a child in terms of safeguarding, so the safeguarding of children. In that sense there might be extra dimensions to it. But once you're past 18 and an adult, you may be vulnerable in certain ways. So if we know that somebody needs extra support, I need to be mindful of safeguarding adults in this as well. Now, that doesn't apply across the board because you can be, you know, I'm not saying that people who are neurodivergent are all vulnerable, but I'm saying there's an aspect of some people that might need extra support in that way.

[Jamie]

Just rewinding to the start of your answer there, where you mentioned kind of just like everybody's different and it is like no two people are the same. And it's just, it's so important, isn't it, to get to know individuals to find out what their needs are.

[Mike]

That is the heart of it really. And there are ways, you know, you ask them, you find out about them. If they have a parent or a carer, you can find out about them. You can find out what works for them, what doesn't work. You know, consistency is a big thing with some people, you know. So if there are reward systems or consequences for behaviours or for carrying out tasks, maybe try and tie in with them. And then of course you've got some people who want to get away from that and football is their bit of freedom away from that thing that they have at school or at home. So it is very individual based, but I think anyone that's interested in this and listening to it cares about people and they make that effort to just find out about the person.

[Louise]

And obviously we've already mentioned that everybody is different, but can you give us an idea of some common instances that a player or coach might find challenging if we weren't aware of how they were experiencing the world?

[Mike]

If we've got a coach on a course, for example, who struggles with the written word or the volume of information or the way it's presented for one reason or another, that can be very disengaging and challenging, you know, the spacing of the learning. And it may be that they don't read the social cues and triggers as well. So attempts at humour by developers or people around the table, they get lost in them and get frustrated and they can be perceived as standoffish. I'm just painting a picture of some of the challenges you can have. Now, I've done some work on the A licence with Matt Bishop on the lead there with the deaf coach who we've supported through the, he successfully achieved his A licence, only the second deaf coach to have done that. But what Matt is saying around the A licence and other courses is that we need to be more aware generally of difference, you know, and neurodiversity is a key part of that, you know, whether it's dyslexia, whether it's spacing of information, you know, things like that. So we could lose someone who is a fantastic coach, who's great with children, knows the game, great with adults, you know, does everything great, but the course puts them off or that contact puts them off. And so the worst case scenario is we could lose them to the game, you know, or they might just stunt their development by not going back for more. That's from a coaching point of view. But As a coach, if you're a player, sometimes your behaviours are seen in a certain light and it's one of the main things that's reported when we have surveys about grassroots coaches that managing behaviour is a big thing they need help with. And I would signpost to the Coaching Disabled Footballers online offer and the face-to-face, there's some great resources on that for different conditions, But if you think of it like this, behavior is a, it's a form of communication. It's a response to an environment. So when your players are, they're engaged, they're trying hard, they're having fun, they're doing what you ask them to do. They're communicating to you, I feel safe, I trust you, I'm happy, this is challenging me, but I'm comfortable with it. So they're not actually saying that to you, but that's what they're giving you. And then perhaps when they're, we frame the behaviour as good or bad, it's just behaviour, it's a way of communicating, but when they're disruptive by not listening or messing around or having a strop or whatever it may be, they're communicating to you that I'm not happy, I'm anxious, you know, there's things going on here that I don't understand, this might be my way of masking that I can't cope. And they're not verbalising that to you, they may not even be consciously communicating that to you. And an analogy for that would be if we were walking down the corridor and somebody jumped out and shouted at us, we'd jump and we'd scream, well I would scream anyway. But that's not me just telling everybody I'm scared, somebody's just jumped out, I don't know what I'm doing. That's a reaction to the environment. It's not something I'm controlling or consciously doing. So that's a manifestation of what's happening internally, the way you're wired, the way you're responding. And it's not something that we necessarily have control over. If that kind of paints a picture of some of the challenges we have as coaches. So perhaps if we're more aware of how our players are and the environment is a little bit better, but also what are they doing when they're happy, maybe rather than waiting for things to go wrong, to see what's happening when things are going well and have more of that.

[Louise]

And I guess it's not about kind of trying to diagnose someone or say what you think is happening there, it's kind of trying to figure out a way to make them feel more comfortable, to get to the bottom of what it is.

[Mike]

That's a very good point because we're not there to diagnose people or say that this is the matter. We're there to try and first of all make the environment as good as we can so that these kind of things are reduced. But we can we can ask them if they're having a good day. We can ask their parents or carers how they're getting on, are they enjoying the sessions, what do they like. You don't have to openly come out and say does this player present this or that. That's not our job. We're not qualified to do it and it would be wrong to do that and make assumptions like that. But by having an environment where you're open and showing that you're caring about the players, people will volunteer, parents will volunteer stuff. Now, we have to remember as well that their lived experience might be being excluded because they've declared something or people judging them because of something, you know, that's been said. And sometimes they may not feel comfortable just sharing that with you, you know, and naturally so. But as you develop the trust and so on and work with them, you learn a bit more about people and learn about the players and so on.

[Jamie]

Do you have any tips to help people make the right environment for their players and to kind of make it more accessible.

[Mike]

Mason Being friendly is good and as we said, finding out about them, but there's ways you can, you can set up the environment so that's more engaging and we might touch on some of those strategies that you have. But definitely if you've got an intent to do it, you can certainly improve the things that will help people as we go along. And I want to make the point as well that this isn't just about coaching people with different needs. This is just good coaching. This is what works for coaches everywhere. Now if there's a coach listening to this that hasn't had a player bouncing a ball and kicking it around while they're trying to talk to them, you know, or you think that they're, I mean, I've done this loads of times, I've said to a player before, what did I just say, thinking they're not listening, and they've just parroted back exactly what I've said. It could be the person staring you in the eyes that's thinking about whether they're having chips, you know, when they go home. So, yeah, there's quite a few things we can do to try and do that. But remember, we're not magic. We're allowed to get it wrong. Let's have permission to fail. You know, don't beat ourselves up if we're not experts on everything.

[Jamie]

If we go through the different parts of a training session, do you have any tips on like maybe instructions or messages before training to help players that are neurodiverse at all?

[Mike]

Routine and knowing what's going to happen is very helpful. So beforehand in coaching generally maybe you might be having a block of work over three or four weeks so you could communicate that. Don't make yourself a hostage to time and schedules, but you could let people know we're working on this area for a few weeks and then we'll move on. When people arrive you might have on your whiteboard or somewhere you could have like a storyboard so that people can see arrival, warm up, dribbling practice, game, cool down, finish. There's also pictures that you can use, there's cards you can print off and download. I think we've got them on the community website. So you could use them as well. And they can be used as well for people to express how they're feeling, you know, if they're not verbal or they can, they can use them to show what they're doing or what they want to do. When people arrive at the session, I think if they know what they're doing, they know they're going to get home, they know where everything is. I think that helps them a lot.

[Louise]

So how about making someone feel comfortable? What would your first steps in making the environment where everyone can feel comfortable be? I know you've said about kind of the storyboard and stuff, but how about the way that you are?

[Mike]

Yeah, so if you're welcoming, if you're open, and that's congruent, that's consistent with the words you're saying, you know, look welcoming and act nicely to people. I think that's important. But also it's not all about the coach, you know, try and have an ethos where the players greet each other, you know, as they come in and you could have a buddy system for someone to look after somebody, things like that. So when they arrive and they just feel in a nice space already.

[Jamie]

And how can coaches kind of tailor or improve the communication to make sure that it's accessible for everybody?

[Mike]

I think again, this is part of coaching generally, you know, keeping things concise to the point, not drifting off everywhere. You know, if you've got a whiteboard and you're using, you know, you might have blue bibs and yellow bibs playing against each other. We'll have the blue counters representing the blue team and the yellows representing the yellow team so you can see that. If it's five versus four on the pitch, have five versus four on the board. I've done this myself previously where I've got the reds are the yellows and the blues are the greens and you're playing this way and you're playing that way. And what we're doing is we're having them to process what the practice is rather than what they're supposed to be learning, rather than the football. So make that clear. And remember, you're not going to get everybody to understand all of the practice before you get going. So try and it may take some weeks, but have this trust where you say to them, it may go wrong, we'll fix it. I trust you to go out there and have a go. And if you get it wrong, trust me to come and help you So they can get out there and not feel confused by not knowing all of the rules and so on.

[Louise]

And how about wanting to give feedback to players or is there a different way you should approach that?

[Mike]

In that way as well you know you make it specific for players you know you don't need to go all over the place. And some people might want it in front of people. Like if it's praise, they might like to get that. But if it's something that they need to work on, they may be private about that. Some people don't like to be the centre of attention regardless. And you'll develop that as you go. You can give feedback as a group and get them used to seeing feedback as a positive thing. So it might be that if I'm working on midfield, playing into the striker and turning, for example, if I say Jamie, fantastic pass in there, you did really well, Louise, you're in a great position to turn there, but you want Mike on the far side, that's the person who you're really trying to get to make a run to support. Then you can say, Mike, what does that allow you to do? You can make one of those fantastic runs you do. So that way you're building it up as a positive thing rather than stopping and saying, look, Jamie's there, Louise is there, Mike, why haven't you done a run? You know, so there's strategies of doing that and building it. And, you know, you might get to the point where they love you when you stop it because they think, oh, this is about me now. I'm going to, I'm going to show how good I am at football, you know. In terms of feedback, I think it's useful sometimes to give the debrief for the session. If you do a debrief, don't give it at the end when they're looking for the drinks bottles and the lift home and the jacket and all of that. If you were to stop it maybe five or six minutes and get a feel for that as you try this, you know, the time, you can refocus them on what they're doing, remind them what they're doing, and then they've got five or six minutes to try that, to get back on task, you know, because if you give them the feedback at the end of the session, the debrief, they don't have an opportunity to work on that again for another week, perhaps. So give them a chance to do that. And in that time, then you can just give some positive reinforcement, let them have some free play. You know, sit back a little bit, assess what they're doing, you know, give them a thumbs up or a reminder of what you're working on. And then when you're finished, they can get their drinks and all of that and go. And the final thing is just on that time management. You know, if your session finishes at seven o'clock and your parents are there at seven o'clock, Try not to be that coach who thinks that the last three minutes you give them is so vital it's going to make them play for England. You know, finishing good times so everybody's relaxed, you know, and they can go and they're not anxious about that.

[Jamie]

I really like those tips. I've not thought about that personally before, like in terms of just like giving them that debrief and then a bit of time to really put that into perspective and put that into it rather than waiting for the next week. Really good tip.

[Mike]

Yeah, I meant to say as well before that, you know, we're on about the space and the setup. It could be that if you're on a 3G and it's a fence, you might have your setup away from all the traffic coming through your session, rather than being in the middle. Having it in the corner of the pitch, you might have an offence on two sides might make you feel safer. And you can have a boundary around that with cones, you know, to make that better. It may be pulling the curtain across. Sometimes if you can do that, you know, if you're on a 3G like that, but wherever you are, if you've got a safe, safe space for drinks, bottles, they know where the jackets are, they know where the warm up area is and maybe a chill out zone so that if you feel it's too much, you might go there. You could have your own fidget toy there or your own football and just take time out. And it could be that's part of your management as well, where you recognise somebody's about to flip or something's gone a little bit, you know, off centre for them, you could suggest they go there. So I think those things are important. And if you don't have time to do that, because somebody else is on the pitch, you could get an assistant coach. So it may be a good thing that you engage a parent to help you. It could be somebody who knows the needs of this child or these children. And if it's regular, they'd have to be DBS checked and all of that. But they might be able to look after them while you get set up, you know, just keep an eye on them. You know, you're not, you're not get wanting them to become a coach and do their A licence next week. You know, they could do the stepping over the sideline CPD or just be there as a nice person, you know, to help with all the meet and greet and the jackets and all of that.

[Jamie]

You made a really good point in your answer there in terms of about getting a safe space set up and potentially fidget toys and stuff like that. I was going to ask a question. We've got some really good resources and articles on the website that are suggesting basically just what you've just said there, like potentially getting a safe space and fidget toys and stuff. So I was going to ask, is there any equipment or anything in the setup that coaches maybe need to think of like that? And you've explained those, but is there anything else that maybe they need to think of?

[Mike]

You could ask them to bring something if they wanted, you know, that's calming for them or they like messing about with. It could be like a small football or something to play with or a sponge football or something, you know, like that. That's not going to be too distracting, but you just ask them what kind of things they like, you know. And I think as well for a lot of this, like we ask children and players to get on the football, get as many touches as you can, love the football, you know. And then when we're talking, we say, stop playing with that football, you know, maybe compromise that, have a little think, well maybe they can roll the football on the floor so that they're not bouncing and making noise, but they're active. Because for some of us, we like to be active and moving while we're learning and listening. Now, if I answer my mobile phone, I'll walk around the room. That doesn't mean that I'm not listening to the phone call. It actually means I'm spending too much attention on the phone call. I'm really zoned in it, but I'm wandering around as I do it. So we need to maybe just be aware of how people listen and pay attention and how we can facilitate that. Don't just say because they're messing around that they're being naughty or that they don't care about you. Of course, maybe you're going on too long as well.

[Louise]

Yeah, I think it's really useful to hear all this and kind of just gets you thinking, doesn't it, about kind of things that you might take for granted or just think are just going to work for everybody. One thing I was thinking, and I think you mentioned it before, was about how you can kind of instil things in the ethos that would help someone in that environment as well.

[Mike]

Again, you know, across football, I think it's very powerful if you involve the team with this. So, you know, maybe when you get them together for the first time in the season or in the first few weeks, if you've got a whiteboard, you know, just sit down and say, well, what are our values? What kind of people do we want to be? And Young people in particular come up with really great stuff, you know, about being kind, about trying hard, about wanting to be the best and all this. And you can write those down. You can say to them, there's one or two I'd like to add as well. So you can put a couple of bits in there and you could take a picture of that, put it in the WhatsApp group for the parents, you know, so they can see how good the children are at framing this. And then when you see somebody doing something kind or or paying attention, reward that, give them attention for that. So you're reinforcing this all the time. And if somebody steps outside of those boundaries, you can say, well, these are our rules. We spoke about this and we all agreed this. You know, it's not the rules that were printed off, that were handed down from the club that have been there for four seasons. And these are our rules about us as people. And let that grow as well. You know, during the season, if you see something good, say, you know what, we'll add that into our values. That's fantastic.

[Jamie]

And thinking kind of that team ethos, obviously a big part of that is parents and carers. So do you have any tips to help coaches work with parents and carers at all?

[Mike]

Yeah, they might be your best resource in this, you know, because they know their, they know their children better than we ever will. You can ask them about it, as I say, share the stuff and let them know if their child has done something really good, you know, spread that around, involve them in that, ask them for ideas on it, You know, if there's somebody who's quite vocal and match day, you could give them maybe, you know, a checklist of things. Can you spot somebody doing this today? Because we want to give an award for this. So that'll occupy them focusing on the really good stuff as well. So there's loads of ways and ask them for their ideas.

[Louise]

One of the other things I was just thinking about, we've talked about players quite a lot, but obviously there may be some neurodivergent coaches. Is there any resources that we can point them in the direction of, or any tips that you can kind of think of if you're working with someone who's neurodivergent?

[Mike]

If we could point them to a mentor, that would be good. I think that working with a coach like that, understand their needs. So for example, it may be around the rules of games. You know, things might be very black and white in terms of right and wrong for the coach so they can see injustices in a more magnified way than we would. Could be that the language is quite literal. It could be that those challenges you have are kind of getting in the way because other people treat you differently and they don't engage you as much as they would with somebody else. But some of those things could be your focus on task, your willingness to really prepare, your creative thinking. Those things could be your super strength as someone who's neurodiverse. So we need to be mindful that that's an aspect of it as well. But I do think that if you know somebody at the club who is having some challenges around their neurodivergence, that you could just like a mentoring group, a coach's conversation, it doesn't and again, we're not going in there fixing somebody or diagnosing it. It's in the same way as we would do with anybody. If somebody was carrying two bags of football, you'd say, do you want to handle one of them? I'm not telling you you're weak, I'm just saying I'm here to help.

[Jamie]

Kind of linking what we spoke about in the first half of the podcast in terms of mentoring, have you got any sort of like stories that you might be able to share in terms of where you might have mentored a coach to help with a player or players who are neurodivergent at all?

[Mike]

There's several, it's really dressed up as good coaching. So if you think about how long you're actually talking as a coach, how you're giving feedback, those things that we discussed, those things will help you with your environment. And people come generally to you and say, they may come even say that this child has been diagnosed with this condition or that condition, what can you do to help? So there's resources again on the England Football Community website through the Coaching Disabled Footballers, there's sheets there about different conditions that will help you, so they're good resources. And speak to somebody like, who at your county who is, their remit is the disability side of things, or someone at safeguarding, because you know, this is part of their care. So reach out for support as well. But what I would do is just try and find out from the player what things they don't like, what things they do like, and try and work on that and build it into the system of what you do.

[Jamie]

Now we spoke and we kind of almost like step by step broke down training. What kind of information and suggestions do you have that could help coaches with match day?

[Mike]

I think preparing people well in language. I mean, if you come out to a group of players and say, we're going to park the bus early doors and our false nine is going to drop into the hole and we'll play from the highest spaces into the channels. You know, make it relatable to them. You know, if you ask someone to stand on the keeper, do you mean actually stand on the keeper or do you mean stand in front of them and bounce up and down? You know, the language you use is really, really important. Don't try and ask them to do stuff on match day that they're not doing it training, you know, try and link all of that, you know, be mindful that you may have these players, they may have like four or five hundred hours of football from, you know, under eights to under sixteens, you know, this, this particular hour is important, but it doesn't define them as people or as footballers. So put that into context. Give yourself permission to relax a little bit and that will convey itself to the players. And if you focus on performance, on them trying this stuff, the results will be what they are. I mean, you can't control how good the opposition are, but you can certainly control your own philosophy and how you treat people. And if you say you're going to treat children fairly, but it's a tight game, then it's not your philosophy, it's just a flag of convenience. If it's a tight game and you don't put little Johnny on or whoever, then you're just saying the right thing, you're not doing the right thing. The test of somebody's principles are, do they hold firm, whether you're winning or losing or whatever the circumstances are. And if you boil it down to treating people fairly, that's a yes or a no. It's not, I treat them a little bit fairly or I treat them fairly sometimes. So try and build that if you can get that ethos going. But on match day, you've got to focus, you're giving them feedback on the things you've asked them to do. Routine might be important as well. So we get there this time, we warm up, we've got this warm up, we do that, or half time looks like this. You've got space to process, you've got time to think, you can give me some feedback and at the end, I don't need to do a Monday night football session with you. Just a few key bits and then on to training.

[Louise]

Really good. Thank you. So I think we're wrapping this bit up now. But if we look back at everything we've discussed, can you summarise the key top tips on neurodiversity that you want coaches to take away from this episode?

[Mike]

Get to know your players, the understanding of your own biases and your own reactions and your own triggers. Don't judge people and make assumptions about them and ask for help to understand.

[Jamie]

And those tips kind of probably tie into this next question. But also I was looking for what kind of piece of advice can you give to help coaches to help them make a positive impact on their player's journey?

[Mike]

All of the things you spoke about, but remember you're empowering people beyond football. The stuff that you give them in the game of football, at training, is stuff that they'll carry into school, they'll carry into relationships, you'll make their home life better, you will help them recognise their strengths. So that might be something they take into a job with, you know, some of the skills they have and it might make them be able to deal with some of the challenges society has in front of you. You've got these people and you may not even realise the impact you have, but they're going to cope with life a lot better because of football and because of you.

[Louise]

Fantastic, really good message to end on there. One thing that we would like to ask you to do is see if you've got a challenge that you can set for coaches that are listening, based on what we've talked about, something to kind of stop some of this, putting some of this into practice perhaps.

[Mike]

I'd say, first of all, listen to your own words, what you're saying to people. That's the first challenge. Be aware of what triggers you, what annoys you with training or match day and see why that is. Try and learn one thing about each of your players over the next month.

[Jamie]

Yeah, no, absolutely. Really good challenge. And we'll put that on the community and set that challenge to our coaches there and then hopefully see how they get on. So look forward to that. Right, well, we are coming up to the end of the show now, but it does mean it is time for our Swift Session feature.

[Louise]

Yep, so we're going to end this with another challenge for you. This time we're going to ask you to explain a session idea to us but in 30 seconds. It can be about any session that you like doing, one that you've perhaps done before and it's a favourite of yours. Okay. Are you up for the challenge?

[Mike]

I'm good for that, yeah.

[Louise]

OK, I'll just set the timer up and then when the music starts, you can begin.

[Mike]

A very simple one, set up four or five boxes in the area, maybe a metre square, but you can vary them depending on your players and the space between them, vary them depending on the challenge. You've got a player on each box, the rest of the players have got a football moving around the area. The players of the football find a, connect with somebody in a box, pass it to them, run in and take their place. The receiving player comes out of the box and becomes the player on the outside. You can add in opposition, you can add in points, you can work on the player capabilities and it can be for any amount of players, people can arrive when they like.

[Louise]

Perfect. Look at that, just in time. So smooth and calm.

[Mike]

Didn't even have a whiteboard.

[Louise]

Is there anything else you want to add to that?

[Mike]

No, that's fine. But there is something I would like to say, wrapping it all up. I think that while we include people and make the umbrella around neurodiversity wider, we don't want to trivialise or take away from the real challenges that people have now. When I set up my cones, they're in straight lines and I put them away in colour and they're not just in colour, but they're in the white at the top, then blue, then yellow. And if people say I've got OCD, I don't. If that doesn't happen because of the rain or whatever, that can look after itself. If you've actually got OCD, it's life, it's a real life challenge for you. You may not be able to leave the house because of routines. If you touch something you don't want to touch, you might have to go through a whole lot of routines. So let's not trivialise stuff. Like people say, oh, he's got ADHD or she's hyperactive. They're not, you know, they're different challenges. So while we're trying to broaden our understanding, let's not trivialise some of the real challenges people have. And the other thing is a message for inclusion, diversity across the board. We're rightly trying to include people who struggle, but don't forget that this is about making your best people better too and taking advantage of their skills. And this isn't my anecdotal stories. This is evidence based, no matter what field of work it is, what business it is, the more diverse your workforce is, the more inclusive you are, the more effective you are, you're better at problem solving, more efficient. This is about being kind to people so that you can get the best out of them. It's to your advantage, you know, it's a win for everybody.

[Louise]

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Jamie]

Yeah, what a powerful way to end the episode, mate. It's been fantastic listening to you, hearing your experiences, but then getting an insight into both mentoring and neurodiversity as well. I'm sure there's so much that the listeners will take away today. We certainly have done, but yeah, that's such a great way to end the show. So thank you very much. Hopefully you've enjoyed coming onto our podcast.

[Mike]

No, thank you very much. It was really nice to be asked. Thank you.

[Jamie]

Right that's all we have time for today, but don't forget to check out the episode description for the transcription of this episode and for all the links to our platforms. There, you'll be able to click through to the England Football Community. And this is where you can post your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast, or just simply to connect with loads of wonderful coaches.

[Louise]

Yes, we'd love to help you out with your coaching questions, so Please do check it out. We'll be back soon with another episode of Coachcast, so if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode. From all of us at England Football Learning, thanks for listening.