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[Jamie]

Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. Today we're chatting to Darren Grover, an FA PE officer for London and the South, to discover his journey so far and to get his insight on a range of topics such as how to create a good environment and how to keep players engaged. Plus, we found out his top coaching and teaching tips. Hi Darren, welcome to the show for the first time, how are you?

[Darren]

Morning Jamie, yeah I'm really well thank you.

[Louise]

It's really good to have you on, thanks for joining us. Can we start by finding out a little bit about your role and what it is that you do.

[Darren]

So I'm a PE officer for London and the South. Job's kind of split into two big bits really. One half of it is supporting teachers and coaches and the delivery of high quality physical education inside schools and the other part of it is working in the grassroots development team which is supporting football up and down the country but mainly in the southeast region.

[Jamie]

Brilliant, fantastic, thank you very much for that. Just before we discover more about you and your experiences, I know you're a keen listener so you know what's coming next, but as this is a coaching podcast coaches could be on the way to training as they're tuning into this. So we always like to give them some great advice at the top of the show.

[Louise]

Yep, so this is your arrival activity to warm you up into the podcast.

[Darren]

Cool.

[Louise]

So what we'll do is we'll give you 30 seconds and we'll ask you to give us as many top coaching tips as you can in that 30 seconds. Does that sound okay?

[Darren]

I'll give it a go.

[Louise]

Okay, so we'll set the timer up and the music will start and you can begin.

[Darren]

Okay. The biggest bit for me is considered the bigger picture. So plan, prepare. I'm not talking about individual coach details. For everything I'm talking about, what are you trying to get out of the end of the session? What do you need? What do your players need? And generally just how does it fit into everything else that you're trying to do? The number one though is be yourself, enjoy the experience. It's such a short amount of time in coaching, you might as well try and enjoy it. So there you go, loads of time left.

[Louise]

Very succinct.

[Jamie]

Absolutely brilliant. You definitely know your stuff there with this show. Got it in there prepped.

[Darren]

That's it, I've definitely listened before.

[Louise]

Lots of information said really well, so that's perfect.

[Jamie]

Brilliant, thanks for that. Well Darren, we'll dive in to find out all about you then, and we always start off with just kind of want to know what your first experience of football was like.

[Darren]

My first experience was probably my brother playing. So my older brother, he was part of a youth football team. So he's three or four years older than me. So it was going down to games on a Sunday. It was watching him from the sideline. Him having a bit more of a sort of organised match than me just at the side with the other kids, the other younger brothers and sisters just playing on the side. On top of that, a lot of informal stuff. It was me with my friends, sort of playing in the street, playing down the park, just really nice and chilled and just learning to love the game more than anything else. As I got a bit older, started to get into a little bit more organised football, grassroots, youth teams, sort of amateur level, but yeah, right at the beginning it was just no pressure, no nothing, just enjoying playing with my mates down the park, just nice chilled kick about.

[Louise]

It's a really great way to start I think that kind of no pressure just to enjoy it kind of thing.

[Darren]

Yeah without a doubt. I don't want him knowing it but my brother was probably a lot better than me in terms of the technical ability So he was probably pushed a little bit harder than I was, which worked in two ways. Brilliant for him. He went on to play at a good level and I was able to enjoy it, but without the pressure that he would have got, because my parents were able to see the different sort of interests that we have. We both love football, but he was obviously destined for a little bit more of a playing career further on and I was just allowed to enjoy it which which let me love it and now I'm here working for the FA.

[Louise]

Yeah, it worked well.

[Jamie]

Yeah it did and I suppose you've seen both sides of it really, just kind of let us know your thoughts in terms of, so if your brother was kind of a bit more structured and pushed a little bit more, but then you had a little bit more freedom, what's the benefits of possibly both sides and how much enjoyment you got from that freedom element?

[Darren]

I think it's really important to understand that we both enjoyed it, it's just we enjoyed it in different ways. He wanted to go on and really achieve and he had the dream of being a footballer, like we all do at some point, but he really wanted to and I was just able to kind of enjoy being in and around football. It allowed me the chance to just play and relax. And I got better because I felt confident in and around it. And I was able to play with my friends, similar sort of standard. It really just allowed me to enjoy everything about it. Whereas his enjoyment came from the bit more structure, a bit more pushing. And yeah, we're both able to have fun just in slightly different ways.

[Louise]

And then I suppose it gave you the opportunity to explore coaching as an opportunity, like a thing that you could potentially do. When did your interest in coaching start and how did you get involved?

[Darren]

So I again I played in sort of structured football from the age of about 12 but I've got one of those age-old injury sort of stories that everyone had could have been a pro but yeah about 14, 15 I got really bad I was getting slatters in my knees. And at that point I had such a close group of friends, but we were all friends who played football at the same time. So I didn't just want to disappear from it because I wasn't able to play. So then I started to, the coach was quite good to me. Let me come down and I did bits, but I obviously wasn't able to do the same as the other boys. But then as that went on, it's kind of a realized that I enjoyed that side of it, whether it was because I was able to still be part of the game, but not necessarily the playing bit. As it went on, I kind of realized that my head understood the game, but my feet not so much. And it's that mix of how can I be involved in a sport that I loved that I was really passionate about but again I wasn't gonna get to the levels of playing so strangely the early realization of of where I was able to fit into the game just benefited me? After that I did my work experience in sports development so down in Croydon I was part of the sports development team. Just a few weeks in there and that really made me realise that massive passion that I've got is helping other people get into something, maybe in different routes than the ones that are first available to you. Went on to do some coaching level ones in things like athletics and badminton and basketball. Didn't really touch my football qualifications until a little bit older, but I think that's because I had the playing side of that. So understanding how to coach, how to be involved in things. I then did A-level PE, I went to university. When I went to university, I did sport and business management because it was that whole sports development was in the back of my head. Still playing a little bit recreationally at that point. And as I came out of university, it was where can I go to? What can I do? I had these coaching badges behind me. I knew I had a passion for helping people. And then that kind of got me into teaching. So football and coaching got me into teaching and then teaching has eventually led me back to being in football at the FA. So a bit of a full circle moment.

[Louise]

Yeah, definitely.

[Jamie]

There's so much stuff in there, but on your journey, whether it be in teaching or coaching, how much of your playing experiences have influenced your approach at all?

[Darren]

Without a doubt, I wouldn't have realised it until I reflected on it. That early involvement of the no pressure, get yourself involved, do what you can, have a friendly place where you had your friends, where you had an opportunity to make mistakes, just enjoy stuff. And that is very much what I hold dear to me now, in the middle, especially when I work with different types of players, different types of kids. Now don't get me wrong, there's certain ends where it's about results and it's about the performance and the justification of why you're doing what you're doing, that's really important. But for me, that first experience of making sure that people are there because they enjoy it, They're there because they want to be there. It makes such a difference and it's that foundation. So when it comes to my coaching, my experience of playing and being allowed to take those risks, that's probably helped me in my coaching because that's something that I want and I want to push forward for those people that I help or I support in different ways. So,

[Louise]

well, probably touch on that a little bit more later on, but I think it's really important that you've kind of made that connection between those.

[Darren]

It's definitely something that I've learned after coaching. I 100% I'm not going to sit here and say, oh yeah, that's really fundamentally important to me. It's something where I've gone out, I've tried stuff, I've given things a go. Some have worked, some have gone horrendously wrong. But because I've been able to be in an environment where I was supported, allowed to make mistakes as a coach, I kind of realised that's what I had when I was a kid and when I was playing as well. And that's where it's really important to me to just go, look, none of us are perfect, but we've just got to keep reflecting on our way to being better.

[Louise]

You've mentioned that the starting point of you coaching, having the opportunity to make mistakes as a coach as well I guess. Yeah. So if you took that into account, what advice would you give yourself as a younger coach going into coaching for the first time?

[Darren]

It sounds ridiculous but don't be afraid to get it wrong because getting it wrong gives us the opportunity to go, right, okay, what is right? In those moments where you get it right, brilliant, keep going. But it doesn't mean it's the finished product. It doesn't mean it's going to work for everyone. But I probably gave myself quite a hard time, especially when I first started out teaching and when my coaching was starting to pick off a little bit outside of work because you want it to be perfect because that's what we see and that's what people look at and they aspire to be and we we sometimes forget the journey that people take to get to where they are. We see the finished product, we see the international managers and we see the top level Premier League bosses and we go, well that's football and that's what we want to be and we ignore the fact that they're 30 years in the making and they get things wrong and you take some really like people with wealth of experience and we just kind of presume that's what they know as opposed to it took them time to get there so if I was to go back to tell myself it would be just try and enjoy what you're doing it will go wrong but the bits that go right they keep going right and then the bits that do go wrong, as long as you're reflective and you go right, okay, how do I change this? What do I do next? Then it helps.

[Louise]

It's all part of the learning experience, isn't it?

[Darren]

I think that's it. I think it's just a long-winded way of saying, don't be afraid. You're going to get stuff wrong. Dust yourself off. Make mistakes. Learn from them. Make sure you reflect and learn from them. But it's just that you're not just doing it for now you're doing it for what's coming next.

[Jamie]

I think that's a really important message for coaches to take away. Like I say, don't be afraid to get it wrong. And then that's how we all learn, isn't it? In any walk of life is like, if you're getting things wrong, you reflect on it, you learn from it and you adapt moving forward. That's a really good piece of advice to give to our listeners, but flipping it the other way, what's the best piece of advice that you've ever received in your career?

[Darren]

Oh, loads. That's a massive question. There's different bits of advice that I kind of hear that I wouldn't want to go that's the single best bit of advice because it's different bits of affecting me at different times. And I mean, even recently, people that I work with now that 10 years ago, I'd never even met them, but they say things and they kind of resonate. And I go, do you know what? That's really important to me on a bigger picture. So I've realized I'm quite a reflective person, but it's probably the understanding that whatever we do, it's surrounding yourself with good people and it's reflecting and understanding that different people have different ways of thinking which is brilliant for us. So there's different people that I work with and the people that I enjoy working with the most are the ones that probably see the world in different colours to me because it makes me reflect. So in terms of the best bit of advice that I've been given it's listen because sometimes we hear things but we don't listen. It's making sure that we actually take it on board even if it's hard to hear and going right okay there was a reason I heard that what was the reason and sometimes it's just because we need to listen and other times it's no I need to change what my behaviors are for the benefit of me which then benefits other people so that's a long-winded waffly answer.

[Jamie]

It's a great answer it's a great answer. Looking at coaching and teaching as well, what would you say is the thing you enjoy most?

[Darren]

The people, it's the experience of being in the moment. So lots of people have lots of things happen in their life and some are good and some are bad but it's the idea of sometimes we don't realise how lucky we are being in the moment at the time and that's something again like I'm not meaning to come across really deep and reflective but It's one of those that you kind of stop and you go, I really enjoy what I'm doing right now. And if I look at all of my best experiences of football, like as I got older, I've won things and like I've enjoyed success, but it's the individual moments of just being around people that you like spending time with. Because again, we don't get many shots at this, so we've just got to kind of enjoy what we're doing. And those moments where you *** an awful joke and a player laughs or you see something and you share that look with someone that you've known for a long time and you're both thinking the same thing, they're the bits that you go you know what that's what sport gives us and that's what football can give us and that's what this whole experience can give us if we're able to just enjoy the people.

[Louise]

A really good point. So if we move on from kind of your history, I suppose, in coaching, we've got a few topics that we want to get your opinions on today. But to start, can you tell us what you think the key attributes and skills are that people need to be a transformational coach or teacher?

[Darren]

I think it goes back to that ability to listen and not just hear. I think it's that what's going on, are we taking it into the moment, are we assessing the situation to inform what we're doing next or are we just assessing a situation? If I take it from a football point of view, it's if a player's learning to receive, can they do it? But it's not just that, it's understanding, are they able to do it? Are they telling us something that we're not necessarily taking in? Are we listening to the situation? It's the same in schools with children when they're in PE lessons. It's are we listening to what they can do? Are we listening to where their strengths are, where their super strengths are? And if we can take that information and we can consider it and then we can change either our behaviour or we can really support them in different ways. I think that's the first step to being transformational for the players, for the kids and then for yourself as well. So again, said it a couple of times now, but it's the ability to listen and not just hear.

[Jamie]

I was kind of a bit of a follow up question to that and it might be some of the listeners or it might be someone that the listeners know, but some people may be a little bit hesitant to take up coaching because they feel they might not have loads of football knowledge for instance but kind of on the back of some of the skills like listening and some of the other softer skills and that the football knowledge isn't the most important thing to coach in. It's much more about that, isn't it?

[Darren]

Oh, without a doubt. I think that's, as I said before, I've got two real parts of my job. It's working with teachers, working with coaches, and the traits which go across both of them is, it's a little bit like that imposter syndrome that people talk about. It's seeing the top, top managers and coaches and the people who have spent 30 years getting to where they are and expecting us to be at that point already because we're comparing ourselves to what we're trying to get to and I think coaching is really important to understand that that's not where we start. Like that might be where we aspire to get to, it might not be, but that's not what we can compare ourselves to. If I was to use a silly analogy, it's you don't start reading by reading War and Peace, you start reading by reading the hungry caterpillar. And it's that, let's get ourselves into those situations and understand it's, we haven't got to be perfect. And then it's the idea of taking all the skills that people do have. So more often than not, we get a lot of parents who, who go into coaching and those parents might not know what a third man run is, or they might not understand different formations and they might not understand the offside rule but they do understand how to speak to kids and they do understand how to be nice people and they do understand how to form relationships and they do understand how to be brave and they're all traits that we can say look if you own that and you really lean into those, the rest of it may or may not come, but it will if it's time to, and it will when the situation allows you to. But more often than not, don't look at what you don't have. Try and lean into what you do have because The bravery to be the one that steps forward is massive and we've really got to push that with any teacher, any coach, just because it really then gives a better experience for the people in front of them. And that's all we're asking for at the end of the day is how can we try and create positive experience for players and staff.

[Louise]

And I guess it'd be a shame for players to miss out on all those really great skills that people can bring just because they're worried about not having all of the things that they think they should.

[Darren]

100 percent. If I go back to when I started playing, if I had gone into a structured situation where a coach expected me to understand all these different beings. I'd have fallen out of football by the time I was 11 because I wasn't ready for it physically. I may have been ready for it mentally, I may have been ready, but emotionally and psychologically I definitely wasn't. But what I was able to have was parents and a family unit that were able to go, no, he's not ready for this yet. But then I also had a coach who was able to go, let's try and make you love the game first. And then when I was ready, I learned to love it in my own way and that developed it. And that's if I took it again from my teaching background, I had teachers that were able to go, maybe not that, let's try this. And I learned to love school, which sounds ridiculous. And not many people say that phrase, but I was able to enjoy going to school, having my friends, learning, and then that's the thing that was going right. Such a positive environment was built for me. And not everyone gets that, but because of the network I had around me, I was able to do that. So yeah, can't complain.

[Jamie]

You just mentioned there a positive environment being built for you. How important is it to develop a good environment for your players or for pupils if you're a teacher?

[Darren]

I think the environment really sets the tone, it sets the way in which people are able to enjoy things. I think it's an environment to set the way in which people go. So again, I go back to my brother, quite a professional environment for an 11, 12 year old, but it's what the group wanted. It's what the coach wanted. It was an opportunity for them to thrive. The environment for me didn't, shouldn't have been that. So because it was something different, it allowed me to thrive. It allowed me to enjoy what I was doing and then take part. And I think that setting in the environment is really important. A big phrase that we talk about in the PE team and with my colleagues is that about creating safety. On the one hand, the ultimate, the number one thing is making sure that people are safe. But when we hear the word safety, we talk about physically safe. So Are there any dangers that are about? We talk about safeguarding, again, so important. The person in front of us, are they safe? But understanding that psychological safety as well, that whole opportunity for people to go, do you know what? It's okay to make mistakes. That starts with the person at the front. It doesn't have to be you the whole time, and I'm sure we'll go into that in a bit, but it's that whole idea that how can we create opportunities for people to feel safe, physically, emotionally, socially, to be the best version of themselves.

[Louise]

And then just to kind of clarify I guess, what would you say is a good environment and how do you create one? Do you think it is the safety part of it?

[Darren]

I think that's a big part of it. I think that's the foundations that if we can create safe environments then the other stuff can happen. We want things to be fun but I think one bit and we speak to teachers quite a lot about this is fun doesn't always look and feel like what we think it does. Like smiles and noise and laughter are brilliant But I look at it from the other point of view that you get kids and players that they might appear in first instance to be a bit stroppy and be a bit intense in the moment, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're not having fun. I think challenge is a really important word to consider here that the players and the coaches are challenged to a point that they're engaged. I think if we can make things safe, then they're able to go, right, okay, I don't need to worry about that. So now I can start to concern myself with this, which then leads on to that point of, well, how can I have fun? How can I be challenged? What rate do I need to progress myself at? What rate is my coach progressing me at? What rate are my friends all progressing at? And it's people start to bounce off each other. So going back to the point I made right at the beginning of this is that being prepared and thinking about the bigger picture allows you to thrive. It's that can we get that structure in place for creativity to really happen?

[Louise]

And I guess that's making sure you know your group and what your aims are and things like that. And then that's creating the environment that suits.

[Darren]

I think relationships between you, the players, you, the class, you, the staff, you, the adults, I think those relationships give us the opportunity to really develop the intricate details that we want during lessons and during sessions. If you know what someone's wanting, if you know their drives, their emotions, their desires, and you can align them with your desires and your emotions and then a bigger picture of the team and everyone can get on that same pathway moving forward for the same direction. I mean even if you don't win in terms of trophies and success and points, you are winning because it goes back to that whole enjoy the people that you're with and enjoy the moment and the thing happening and aligning those. I mean, if people can do that, they'd be millionaires if they bottle it up and they sell it. And that's the important bit that we're trying to create in getting the right environment psychologically, physically, emotionally, letting people thrive and then just developing a sort of a team mentality.

[Jamie]

So that psychological safety element to create in a good environment, how can coaches and teachers really instill that then?

[Darren]

I think the really important bit is that in football, the thing that makes football so perfect is its imperfection, is that we think of ways of doing different things different ways and there is no right or wrong answer. Now there are certain steps that I would take in terms of creating a right environment and the way in which I would do it. And I'd start with the idea of role models. I'd start with the idea of if you're the one at the front, then you have to set the tone in terms of when to up the intensity, when to wind it back down, when to listen, when to understand what the people in front of you are wanting. But role models don't just have to be you, like you've got players within your team that can take on role models, whether it's an official captain or just a player that needs a bit more support, that you can go right, okay, here's how you can do it. But now can you show them? Same in a class, if you've got three or four kids that can already do the things that you were intending to do, then lean on them to become the role models and help get them on your side to set the environment and set the standards that you're wanting inside there. I mean, the other way of doing it is role modelling can be that idea of at the beginning of a season saying, what are our rules? What are our non-negotiables that we all decide as a team, that collaborative learning that can happen. We all agree that when one of us is talking, the rest of us listen. We all agree that for one game during the season, we're all going to take a role and go. We're all going to mix it up. And again, it's that aligning the things that people are thinking. After role models and setting the standards, I say the next one is allowing people to have that opportunity to collaborate. It's you've set the rules, you set the standards, but you're not there to spoon feed every single one, every step of it. We, as a phrase I've heard a few times over the last couple of years is that we're not creating like PlayStation controller coaches. We're not wanting someone to stand at the side and go, do this, do that. Now, it's a fine line. We don't want people to not support the players in front of them. We don't want to let them just completely fail with no sort of coping mechanisms. But on the other side of it is, how can we get them to to find their own ways of working out, encourage situations where they can talk with each other and collaborate and learn. I mean, it's even a case that you could go down the route of if you've know you've got one child, whether they're new to a team or they've just got other stuff going on in their life, it's pairing them with someone that they know or they trust. Cause if they know and trust them, then they might confide in them and they might share and they might just feel that sense of relief to share. And then it gets them back into it. And it's that whole positive environment. I think the next step is when you see the behaviours happening that you want, praise them, positive, like just consider that whole situation of going, that was brilliant, that's what I want, that's what we want, well done. Because we're more likely just as human beings to do the things if people say well done and we're being given a license that validation by someone else to go really like what you're doing there then it's going to help us to keep doing that and really develop those behaviors and and that's really difficult if you I don't know say you lost it a weekend or on the weekend and you've got people who are making judgment on you and you've got parents who are going, yeah but my son this and my daughter that and you're there going right okay but here are the behaviors we're wanting to do. Which then kind of leads me on to the last two which are interchangeable which is communicate and be transparent of what you're trying to achieve and if people want to do it, brilliant, because we can create environments where we're able to support and get people on that same line and if people don't want to then it's it's a difficult situation but you can't not be honest and you can't not communicate what's going on. Which then the entertainment one is just, as I've said numerous times today, it's that reflection. If someone says something to you, don't just hear it and go, you're wrong. It's okay, there's a reason why they're saying it. Does it align to my values and my beliefs and what I'm trying to do? Yes, no. Make that decision and then progress. And again, from a coaching world, it's the Remembering your bigger picture, development versus winning, they're not a dichotomy where it's one or the other, it can be both. And then from a teaching point of view, it's going right, what am I actually trying to achieve here? I've got so many things that I've got going on, so many things that kids have got going on. How can we create an environment where they're able to give stuff a go and feel confident in it?

[Jamie]

Just want to pull back to something that you mentioned earlier in the answer, which was like anybody can be role models. Thinking of that, parents can be role models as well. So I was just wondering what role can parents play here? Can they be a big help for coaches in this space in terms of helping to create the right environment?

[Darren]

Yeah, definitely. This is a really, I say contentious topic, but it's one that 100% anyone who coaches in youth football will come across at some point and have both positive and not so positive experiences. And getting parents involved, it's really important But it doesn't have to be your first thought of getting someone to come and run the line or getting someone to to coach alongside You it might just be a case of can you support your child with what we're trying to achieve? It's that communication of saying look this is what we're trying to do. On your way home, as you're taking a home or when you're sitting at breakfast the next day or when you're coming here next week, maybe ask a couple of questions. And the thing about kids when you're asking questions is, I mean, we've all done it. It's how was your day at school today? I was right. It's that, okay, it's helping parents to have that belief that maybe they've got to ask the second question or sharing a bit of detail, sharing what you've done in sessions to say, look, this week we've been really, really trying working on our receiving. Here are the top three things that we've gone through. Share that with the parent. It then gives the parent a bit of information so they can feel like they're expert. Because again, we talked earlier about the imposter syndrome. You don't want to look like you don't know what you're talking about. So if you don't know what you're talking about, you tend to avoid those topics. Well, the parents might be feeling the same thing. So can we give them a few things for them to talk about that allow them to have the conversation and just create that, it fosters the environment beyond it. On the other side of it, you do get parents that know quite a lot, which again is quite difficult because they are the expert in the room. And that's the bit where we have to go, right, okay, I really appreciate what you're saying. I really appreciate what you're doing. Validate what their input into it. But then the other side of it, gently reminding them that you're the one that stepped up. And if they do want to come and step up, then amazing, brilliant. But there's a reason they didn't at that point. And it's about going, well, how can we all work together? Because if we're not aligned in what we're thinking and what we're feeling, neither of us are going to have a positive experience and neither's the player. So it's how can we align everyone to just be honest and go, look, this is what we're trying to achieve. Sometimes we do it, sometimes we don't, but you can't say like we, we didn't say this was going to be the way of doing it. So yeah, it's a very, very tricky situation, but there are multiple ways to try and get people on side.

[Louise]

And I guess it's just that kind of bringing it to a point of just understanding and communicating as much as possible is a really good useful tool for that kind of situation if it is tricky.

[Darren]

Yeah and again different ways to communicate as well it could be an informal chat to the side because sometimes if we send texts and letters they might make us feel more confident in sending them but they don't always come across in the same way that you intended them. Quiet conversations. We spoke earlier about the relationships between us and the players or the relationships between us and the family units of the players that's that's almost just as important because you potentially if you're lucky enough to spend two nights a week for an hour and a half and then a weekend with these players, in total you're going to spend what, six hours? The other people, these family units, they're spending the rest of the week with them. So if there's a divide between you and the family unit, you're not going to win that argument with the player. So it's the case of going, well, listen to what they're saying and just try and keep the communication channels as open as possible because as soon as it gets a bit muddy, that's when it becomes really difficult to get back. So the more honest you are and open from the beginning, the less you have to hide from further down the line.

[Jamie]

How do you as a coach or teacher ensure that the environment you create then and the way you behave as well can help players to learn and develop?

[Darren]

I think the big one for me is that psychological safety that we spoke about before. Now, we're trying to make players, but also people, and whether that's dealing with the younger ones or whether it's dealing with senior players, we have to make them feel as if they're accepted and valued and supported. Because if we can do that, then what happens is they get a higher level of confidence and a higher level of self-worth, self-efficacy to kind of go I'm okay here to be myself and if people are able to be themselves then they're more likely to take risks and then learn from the experiences and then contribute to the team ethic or the class ethic and create relationships and then they'll support each other because the mentality and the environment's been set. So if we can get people to feel safe within a situation, they're far more likely to. An example, if I was to take it to a practical situation is, and we've all done it, we'll be talking about passing and we'll get two players to be standing 10 feet away from each other and they'll pass backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, because we feel like that's a lot of opportunity to, for repetition. And yes, it definitely does. But as soon as a pass is misplaced, eyes are on you, eyes are watching, which means that you're less likely to do that pass the way that we want it to. So the intensity levels will drop down. So then it gets frustrating as a coach situation because we've set a situation up completely innocently. We've set a situation up where that player is never going to perform that task to the best of their ability because they think other people are watching and because that judgment is on them. So if we can create practices or we can create situations where it's okay to get it wrong and you're not going to have that fear of being ridiculed or made fun of or that fear that everyone else can do it, then... Or if we can create a situation where it's not going to be noticed and it's not going to break down the whole session, then people are more likely to take risks and come up with different ways of achieving things. If you know no one's watching you, you're way more likely to try something a little bit special, get that confidence within a player. And if we can do that, then they're far more likely to develop strategies further down the line, in matches, in lessons, in life.

[Louise]

Definitely an important thing like that ability to fail every so often and know what to do with it afterwards as well.

[Darren]

No one wants to fail but I think it's really important to understand that there is a difference between winning and the desire to win. We want to foster people who want to win, but we don't want to make them so terrified of failure because it's horrible. Even at the top level, you take the Euros a few years back, imagine what those players in that penalty shootout were feeling, like the pressure, like even thinking about it now, it kind of, like your hair's standing on end. But that feeling that they must have felt, that is what kids feel like if they can't do something and they get that pressure on them and they feel like eyes are watching. So it's really important that we just stop for a second and go look, it's the first attempt in learning, it's that get it wrong because it's going to help you get it right and if we can develop those coping mechanisms then yeah we're on for a winner.

[Jamie]

Now we mentioned at the top of the show that we've got a few topics to chat to you about and the next one is something that we get asked a lot about. So we just wanted to get your insight on it. How do you keep players engaged in your sessions?

[Darren]

I said it before, it's challenge. It's making sure that people feel challenged. Now, what I mean by that isn't setting them tasks that they can't achieve. It's going, what can we do to push them as much as they need to be pushed, but then also keep them on task. It's setting things that are they able to, like because of the relationship that I know of the child or of the player, what can they do? What do I want them to do? That bigger picture thinking, and how can I set a task which pushes them just outside their comfort zone so they find it difficult, but not too difficult that they're going to give up? I think the other part of that is, we talk a lot on coaching courses about the step principle, space, task, equipment, players, people, but I think the really important bit, and we talk to teachers and coaches all the time, it doesn't have to be you that changes it for everyone. So give him power to your players to go, look, what do you want to change? And I mean, an example would be if they're finding it too easy with one piece of equipment saying, well, here's a bib, work it out. What can you do? Now that they might instantly go, what are you talking about? This has nothing to do with football, but that's a challenge. And we can get them to think about it in different ways. The other part of that whole step thing is with task, like us three, we could be playing a game, but we can have different rules So if one of us is really competent as doing certain things well, maybe you've got to do something else and the other two are still allowed to to really push that so in terms of Keeping players engaged is it's recognizing the challenge. It's understanding what's gonna push them just outside their comfort zone, not just be the thing that they've done every week for the last five or six years, it's making sure that we're pushing them. And then I think, like kind of implied, it's bringing them on the learning journey as well, taking their opinions, because they're going to tell you what they like and what they don't like. And I've said it multiple times today, it's actually listening to that, not just hearing the noise.

[Louise]

And do you think that approach kind of is different depending on the age groups that you're working with?

[Darren]

Yes and no. Obviously, as a player is being involved in a game for a longer period of time, they're going to be generally able to do things a little bit better. So that level of challenge probably does have to be a bit more intricate, probably has to be a little bit more specific to where they are in their journey. If they're young, it's that, what challenge can we do that keeps them engaged? The tempo in which we are able to do things, like you take consideration, how long we can process information, The older you get, the more able you are to do different things for a longer period of time. But if we're dealing with four and five year olds, it's that idea of how can we keep it quick and snappy and enjoyable and keep the tempo moving? Because then they feel challenged and they don't always have time to realise that, A, that they start to get bored because it's the same thing for a long time, or they start to go, this is too difficult, or this is too easy. It's keeping that tempo going. And the further you are into your journey, the more likely you are to sustain that level of intensity, to keep the challenge and tempo high. It's really important that I've said the journey there as opposed to the age, because I have 100% taught 14 year olds and 7 year olds that are on the same level in their journey because of where they've been. Well maybe not 7 year olds but definitely 9 year olds and 14 year olds because if you take girls football for instance, it's something that we do quite a lot and we work with quite a lot in the PE team, some of the girls at 14, they might just be taking up football, but they might have played an extremely high level of sport, whether it's netball or gymnastics or judo or karate, whatever, they've played at that higher level of sport but in their football journey they're still novices. So it's the idea of us going what's the challenge that they need specifically? The easiest way to find out is to ask and have a conversation and take it into your consideration to make them feel like they can take the risk.

[Jamie]

What would you say the top signs are that coaches need to look out for that tell them a player's disengaged or about to lose interest in a practice during training?

[Darren]

This is probably one which again it's that flip, doesn't matter how old you are, but tempo, intensity and what's going on is such a gut feeling that you get and you get it from experience. It's You start to notice when people drop off or they start to do things which are slightly different to what you had asked and they're the moments where you have to go right okay why is that happening is it because it's too difficult for them and I need to step in and and support them or is it because it's too easy for them and they're just not getting what they wanted out of it. And if we talk about that whole, it's okay to fail, it's okay for the kids to fail, the players to fail. It's okay for the teacher to fail and go, or the coach and go, do you know what? That did not work one bit. I need to stop this now and move on to something which I'm more comfortable with. And again, it comes with experience. It's the first time it happens, it's really disappointing because You spend hours really to thinking about how it's gonna work and what it's gonna do and this is gonna happen and you play the Entire hour out in your head and then five minutes into it you go This is not what I was expecting and it's okay to just go. Do you know what that hasn't worked? Caveat to that it might work next time it just hasn't worked right now and that's something that we've got to look at just to consider it.

[Louise]

Another thing to do with obviously working with groups, how do you ensure that you can meet the needs of every player? Because obviously each player is going to have different needs and wants.

[Darren]

That is probably the biggest question when I work with teachers and then it's a very, very high up question when I work with coaches as well. So if we go with coaches first, it's about understanding that There's a reason why those players are there. It's that enjoyment and it's the fun and it's the it's the understanding that if we can build a team mentality that Then the chances of individual people needing individual stuff I think they reduce a little bit as you go along because you start realising where the commonalities are between the whole team. It's definitely not a perfect science because you get different players in different positions and they've had different dinners and the wind's blowing in a different way and they've had a last minute journey coming on. But understanding that relationships and then going right, okay, well this is what I'm wanting, this is my framework, You can explore that and you kind of hand over a little bit of ownership to them, but it's still your session. A phrase that a previous colleague, Craig Lawrence, said to me when I first started was, it's freedom within a framework. It's you set the framework, but you allow the players and the people to go be free. If I then take that to a teaching point of view, you've now got 30 people there of which five want to be there, five don't, and then the rest will be there because they have to be and it's that whole idea of going, this is my intention, this is my outcome, this is what I want, and then allowing them to explore different ways, going back to that, let them solve problems. If we spoon feed them everything, then that's not a session for them, that's a session for us. And for me, that's not necessarily the role of a coach or a teacher when it comes to development.

[Jamie]

Now, taking in your experiences with coaching and teaching, we imagine you've had to deal with being in charge of large groups of players. So I was wondering, do you have any advice for coaches who, with those large groups, you might have new players or pupils, some might be missing or some we might have new players joining. Can you give us any advice on how coaches and teachers can manage that scenario of integrating new people into the group to ensure that players bond and can develop a good relationship with each other.

[Darren]

I think it goes back to what I've just been saying there about that freedom within a framework. It's set the parameters of what you want. It's these are the non-negotiables and they might be your ones, they might be the ones of the club or the school, They might be the ones of the club or the other school They might be the ones of the players and the kids that you've got the class rules the team rules But it's by setting those standards that everyone's able to understand that Reinforcement that comes from you comes from the players in your team, comes from parents, comes from other members of staff. It's having those set of rules lets people have that commonality. So if you're brand new walking into a situation, it's terrifying. Like you might be the best player technically, but that's a brand new situation and it's terrifying. But if you know that there's certain things that you go, okay, that's my go-to, that's the standard. When he's talking, when she's talking, I'm not. That means that you're able to go, look, we're all on the same page. And by reinforcing that to everyone, It makes people feel more comfortable in situations. Pairing and mentoring, it's a really good tool that we use and we should probably use more. And it shouldn't always just be, oh, I've got a captain. So I know that this captain does this way of playing and this way of thinking, new player, right, you two work with each other. It could be that you speak to a player that maybe it's going to really help them if they need a bit more confidence in supporting someone. So you're allowing, you're handing over the power to them for them to solve their own problems and them to work, obviously keep an eye on it and make sure that it's safe and make sure that they're saying the things that you want them to say. You don't necessarily want them to be negative role models, but if you try and do it all yourself, you will be exhausted at the end of the season. Sometimes we have to realise that it's about the people in front of us, so hand over the power to them, which again from a coach's point of view or a teacher's point of view, that's terrifying to do for the first time because we want it to go right. But if we can get everyone building and everyone contributing to that community, then we're far more likely to have success and reach those goals that we might set ourselves at the beginning of the season.

[Jamie]

Now we're coming towards the end of the show, so it'd be good to wrap up a few top tips if that's alright. So just wondering what top tips do you have, say three top tips, to help coaches and teachers make a positive impact on their players journey?

[Darren]

First of all I think it's consider the bigger picture. Now whether that is recreational or whether it's performance-based, it's what are you trying to achieve and then making sure that that's clear to everyone involved because that's going to help you all be on the same page. I think The second one is consider that, like it's that phrase, no man is an island. It's that, it's consider that you've got lots of people to help, it's the other consideration that it takes a village to raise someone. It's bringing the players and bringing the parents and bringing everyone available to go, right, this is what we're trying to do to achieve that bigger picture. And then my final one would be, I've said it a few times, it's don't just hear things, actually listen and reflect on them and help them help you to progress. Because if you enjoy it, then you'll keep coming back. And that is infectious to the people around you. And the more we can enjoy this short time that we have involved in playing football, this short time that we've got involved in physical activity and school sport, if we can enjoy that, then we're far more likely to do it further down the line when we're not with each other and that's really important it's just making sure you enjoy it.

[Jamie]

So really key messages there definitely.

[Louise]

I think what would be really good at this point is to ask if you have a challenge that you'd like to set to our listeners. So what we're trying to do is kind of encourage people to give something a go. So perhaps in the topic that many topics we've spoken about today, if there's a challenge that you can put to them and then they can maybe discuss it on the community and kind of how it's gone, what they've struggled with, how well it's gone and can all discuss it between themselves and the community. So have you got any challenges or a challenge?

[Darren]

I'd say I'd probably do what any good coach does and I'd steal what you guys have been saying today. And I'd ask the question about how do other people try and engage new people into sessions, whether it's somebody who's popped down for the session or at the beginning of a year is what do you do to help other people engage? Because that's a question that we get all the time is, yeah. So, So I think I'd throw it back and just ask the same thing you've been asking me. What do you do to help engage new people to sessions?

[Louise]

And it might be maybe they can, so they'll find some of those answers out and then maybe try some different ways of engaging people.

[Darren]

Oh, without a doubt. If we can share that, that'd be amazing. If you've got games, specific things that you go, this is what my players love and this gets them all bubbly and that situation where we're all talking to each other. If people can share some things that have worked for them, but then also if they can listen to what other people are saying, so read the other ones that people have been saying on there, listen to them, give them a go. If they work, come back and share. If they don't, come back and share.

[Louise]

Yeah, all really useful stuff.

[Jamie]

Yeah, brilliant. We'll make sure to get that on the community. So check that out and let us know your thoughts. Let us know how you do it. As I say, we're getting towards the end of the show, but we've just got time to squeeze in a swift session.

[Louise]

Yep, so this is our final challenge to see you off. We're going to give you another 30 seconds, but this time we're going to ask you to come up with a session idea and explain it to us in those 30 seconds.

[Darren]

I'll give it a go.

[Louise]

That's all we ask, you give it a go. You did really well on the first one. Okay, so we'll set the timer up. Your 30 seconds starts now.

[Darren]

Right, so I've been thinking about this. It's a multi-directional activation game. Three teams, so at any point it's two teams versus one. So you split your group into three sections, whether it's tag or possession, you have team A, team B versus team C. And every 30 seconds, a minute, you change it up. The idea being that kids have to deal with overloads, under loads, different solving problems and just moving it forward constantly. So don't know if that's worked but we'll give it a go.

[Louise]

See, you did it in plenty of time again. Very succinct.

[Darren]

In my head that makes sense. I'll definitely be putting that session up on the community so people can realise what I've actually just said.

[Louise]

It's definitely hard trying to explain it rather than kind of showing it.

[Darren]

Honestly, I keep drawing it in my head and lots of pens and paper but that's the problem with being a coach developer. You can't help yourself.

[Jamie]

Brilliant. Well Darren, that was fantastic. We've thrown loads of questions at you and we've covered loads of topics. We really appreciate you coming on the show. So thank you very much for your time. Thanks for sharing your story and your advice and hopefully you enjoyed it.

[Darren]

Hopefully some of it made sense, but yeah, no, really, really enjoyed it. Thanks a lot. Thanks for everything that you two are doing. So really appreciate it.

[Jamie]

Thank you very much. Cheers. Right. Well, that was a really good chat there Louise. Darren covered so many topics, so much stuff to take away, but what was the key thing that you took away from our discussion?

[Louise]

It was something he said right at the beginning but it kept coming back throughout, but don't be afraid to get things wrong. It's a really important message that you won't get things right straight away or the first time and you can learn so much from getting things wrong and reflecting on it and developing.

[Jamie]

Yeah that's a brilliant message to take away, please keep that in mind. For me it was the importance and the value of having good listening skills, realistically. It's really important to listen and to learn and to understand your players. And it's a good soft skill that everybody can have. It doesn't matter if you don't have the football knowledge, you know, you can be a good coach or a good teacher if you've got good listening skills. Right, well, that is all we have time for today but don't forget to check out the episode description for the transcription of this episode and for all the links to our platforms. There you will be able to click through to the England Football Community. This is where you can post your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast or just simply to connect with loads of wonderful coaches.

[Louise]

Yep, we'd love to help you out with your coaching questions so please do go and check it out. We'll be back soon with another episode of Coachcast so if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode. From all of us at England Football Learning, thanks for listening.