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[Jamie]

Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. As always, we're Jamie and Louise, and today we're joined by Loz Lok who returns to Coachcast to talk about helping players manage their emotions and behaviour with a particular focus on dealing with winning and losing. Hi Loz, welcome back to the show, how are you?

[Loz]

Yes, all good, thank you, Thanks for having me back.

[Louise]

Yeah, it's really nice to have you back on. It's been a while, but really nice to have you here. For anybody who didn't hear the first episode that you were on, because it was a while back, can you tell us a little bit about what it is that you do?

[Loz]

Yeah. So I'm a coach development manager in the grassroots division. So my role is around working with various stakeholders to look at how we can diversify the coaching workforce. So what we want to do is make the game and coaching more representative of society. So we work with a variety of partners, both internally and externally, to try and make the game more representative of our communities.

[Louise]

Brilliant. Really important job there. Absolutely.

[Jamie]

Well just before we dive into the main subject of the show, as you know this is a coaching podcast and people may be travelling while they're tuning in to this so we like to give them some top tips at the start of the episode.

[Louise]

Yep. So we're going to give you 30 seconds and we're going to ask you to give us as many top coaching tips in those 30 seconds. Are you up for that challenge?

[Loz]

I am. Yes.

[Louise]

Okay. I'm going to get a timer up so you can see your 30 seconds counting down and when it starts, you can begin.

[Loz]

Yep. So top tips for me, probably my top three would be one, plan, but be able to modify when needed. The second one is, develop and deliver your session based on the needs of your players. So don't feel that just because it's on the plan, you've got to stick to it. So always be adaptive. And then the third one is to make sure that your sessions are enjoyable. Whatever age group you're working with. So making sure that they have a smile on the face and they're enjoying the session.

[Louise]

Perfectly done. Brilliant. Really good. Yeah, three very good tactics there.

[Jamie]

Thanks, Loz. Now, Loz, as Louise said, it has been a little while since you've been on the podcast. So just before we kind of dive in, we just wondered how things have been since you were last on and what sort of things you've been working on?

[Loz]

Probably been two or three seasons since I last came on, but one of the things personally I've continued to coach, which has been really important because it allows me to take the learnings as a volunteer grassroots coach and work with players that I work with, but also that allows me to then, you know, when I'm working with coaches to share some of the learnings as a coach with them. So I've done my first season as a, how do we describe it, like a parent volunteer coach. So my little boy started playing football for a local grassroots team. So I was the second assistant. So that allowed me to kind of play around with some new ideas, look at it from a parent's perspective as a coach. So, you know, even though I've coached for over 20 years, it's always been coaching other people's kids or other players, but actually coaching your own child is a complete game changer. So, I've done my first season and survived that. So I'm going into my second season, but I've learned a lot as a parent, but also understanding like the emotions as a volunteer coach having to go through whilst coaching your own players, juggling work, juggling family life, whilst trying to give the kids that best hour of their week. So that's been quite handy in terms of my day job, but at the same time, it's allowed me to reflect differently as a coach, but also as a parent. Work-wise, yeah, we've done some fantastic work around diversifying the coaching workforce. So me and the team, we've done, I say we, like they've done some fantastic work in terms of trying to get more coaches into the game, but also staying in the game as well. So through the Partly Funded Places programme, through the Chase programme, we've managed to get a lot of coaches through qualifications. I think the key bit now is like how do we keep them in coaching, which has been vital. So we don't want people just to do qualifications and come on CPD. It's actually how do they take the learnings from the courses or from the workshops and then staying coaching because that's what we need. We need more coaches volunteering getting into paid employment. So it's really important that we give them the right support behind that. Make sure that they stay in the game.

[Louise]

Sounds like you've had some really interesting insights and kind of development in probably ways that you weren't necessarily expecting, especially with being a parent coach.

[Loz]

Yeah. It's a couple of price on that one. Hopefully I can talk about some of the learnings I've had from from the season. Well, it's been two seasons where it's been kind of me in the background where it's been a mini kicker session where the kids just come up for an hour whereas we've now gone into a season of playing matches, having a training session in a game on a Saturday, which has been, it's been really fun to take the kids through this year of learning. Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Well, looking forward to hearing about those experiences tied into the rest of the show then. So yeah, back to today's topic at this time of the year, the season is well underway now. So we want to build on the last episode we did, which focused on match day. And this is kind of focusing on another part of match day which is player behaviour and self-regulation. So obviously match day brings highs and lows as you know for everybody to manage. So to start what are some of the most common behaviours you see in young players during matches that they show that they may need some support with managing?

[Loz]

Often, like for young players, they get a lot of emotional stress because it's the match. I think the build up to the match often can put them in a situation where they're not used to. Going back to the grassroots team that I worked with, I remember our first probably six weeks of kids going to a venue where they're playing a different team, they don't know who they're playing against. It's a new format for them. So there was loads of different things outside of football that was affecting them. I think then the other one was around like the parents' expectations of the match day. Often their emotions would play off on the kids. So in terms of like managing their emotions, it was really challenging in terms of, you know, for some of these kids, it was their first ever time playing football. It was their first time putting on a kit, first time putting on shin pads, for some kids first time going in goal. And then even though like we weren't counting the score, they were in their own minds, they were counting the score. So there's that element of winning and losing. So when you add all that into a brain of a child, it's a lot of emotional stress that they're gonna go under. So yeah, I think for that as a coach, it's really important that we've got to try and dissect that and try and create that environment where it's just an extension of training. That's what we say to the kids, like don't treat this as a big game. It's not what you see on TV. And I think even having a referee there, someone that is going to manage the game in the right way, that has a impact on the kids as well. So there's loads of different factors which play in. And I think it's the role of the coach to minimize the extent of the emotional stress. And that's quite a challenging thing to do as a coach because you've then got your own emotions to think about as well. So I think as a coach you sometimes need to just step back, allow the kids to not essentially work it out, but allow them to go through that regulation because they need to feel it and then you can work them away from that as well.

[Louise]

So why would you say, I mean you've mentioned a couple of things there, but why would you say that it's important for grassroots coaches to support players and help them manage their emotions, especially on match day?

[Loz]

Yeah, so I think the role of the coach, like I said, it's vital for them because if players are highly emotional during the game, you know, it has an impact on their development, it has an impact on, you know, how they might play in the game. So then that could then trigger into their teammates, it can trigger against the opposition, it could trigger against the opposition's coach. So the role of the coach themselves, so for example, like if I'm coaching kids and I know there's a trigger, certainly for some players, you might have to go, I can spot something that's coming. So as a coach, it's really important. You're trying to coach the game, you're trying to coach the players, but I think now you're trying to look at the triggers that sometimes kids might face as well. So it might be, you know, a heavy score line against you. Like, how do you help your kids in that situation where you still want to keep them motivated to carry on playing and not kind of stop wanting to play. At the same time, if you winning by a lot of goals, for example, you don't want to then like, I don't know what it's like. So you don't want them to then think it's too easy. So you still need to manage them. So your role as a coach is to kind of, it's a bit like spinning different plates. So it's that emotional plate you've got to keep spinning to make sure that they're not kind of going over one end too far where it's not enjoyable for them. And it's not going one end too far. So it's not enjoyable for the parents watching the other team that you're playing against. So as a coach, I think sometimes you need to observe away from the ball. And I always say like, yes, the game's going on and the ball's going up there, but are you looking at your other players that are not near the ball? Because sometimes, you know, why are they stood still? Why are they not moving around? So for me, it's that observation is really important as coaches away from the kind of technical, tactical stuff. It's sometimes the social, psychological areas you need to look at as well.

[Louise]

I guess that's one kind of tip, isn't it? That it's kind of look away from the ball. Have you got any other top tips to help coaches support their players to manage their emotions at all?

[Loz]

Yeah so I think one is the pre, pre, pre-game. So often like I always greet the players So we play a game at a central venue. It's quite busy. So already I've seen it like seven year olds coming to a venue where there's already a hundred people there. So already like there's loads of different emotions, different noises. So you're trying to make sure that you go in together and make sure that you're going in as a team. And even little things like that. I think the first time we went, because we didn't know the venue that well, didn't know which pitch we were going on, kids were going on the wrong pitches and our kids were really emotional that day. And then what we'd learn was actually, if we all meet in one place, we walk in together, actually they're going as a team and they know each other. Whereas I think what's important is creating that pre-game safety. And then once you go into the game, it's then actually when they're putting their shin pads on, when they're putting the laces on, you know, how are they acting? Are they eager to get going or are they just like stood to the side and not getting involved? So I think sometimes it's that observation's really important as a coach, looking at body language. And I think the other one is like, going back to like working with parents is actually speaking to the parents. Oh, how's little Johnny been today, this morning? Has he had some breakfast? Has he eaten today? So little things like that to make sure that you don't know what's happened, you know, the two, three hours leading up to the game, like have they had a good morning or if they had a bad day at school the day before. So they're the things that you need to put into place before the game even starts. And I think sometimes as coaches, we kind of neglect that. It's just the game's kicking off at 11, we arrive at 1030, we get going at 11, but there's loads of things that happened before that game. So they're the things that sometimes now as a coach, I'll often think about before we even get to the kickoff. And then as you kind of building up to kickoff, it's then like when you're doing your starting lineup, like what are the players body language as you're, you know, if one's a sub, like that could have an impact on their performance and their emotions. It's like, I want to start every week. But if you're doing a rotation where they're not starting, they might then go, that might impact them. So it's around like not essentially building a contract. It's kind of building your expectations as a coach. So that then gets us to the game where, right, we're ready to go now. So already you've done a lot of work beforehand. Now we're getting into the game and it's like, there's another factor coming in now. Do we score straight away? How does that impact the game? Has the other team scored straight away? That might impact the game. So you're constantly looking at stuff, like I said, away from the ball where you don't know what's going to come around the corner and it's your role as a coach to kind of react to what's going to come and that takes time to learn and it takes time to react to. And I think until you've felt it as a coach, you will then go, Oh, I knew that happened before. This is a way I can deal with it. So I think reflection is key on that because you've got to make mistakes before you can rectify what might happen. And I've done that as a coach for the last 25 years. You always think, Oh, that happened. It might have happened 10 years ago, but something might happen now. We go, if I do this, that might work with this player.

[Louise]

Yeah. No, it's really good to kind of think about those things that you can go back on from past times.

[Jamie]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. That, that lived experience, isn't it? And so basically that, that what you're saying in terms of like, it's just so crucial that coaches, one, have those observational skills, but also really just know the players so that they can kind of tell that, you know, the body language and just thinking, this is what that player needs.

[Loz]

Yeah, that's vital. We always say like, know the person first. So, you know, I work with under seven, under eight players. So we've done a lot of work around, like so through our coaching disabled footballers workshop, we've got player passports. So we've got a player passport for every kid that we work with. So we know what they like, what they don't like, what triggers them. And that's really helped us. So when we go and work with the kids, we know like how to go and interact with them. So there's, you know, so not just in the team that I've got now, but the players that I've worked with in the past that I've got, I've one player that I've worked with in the past that didn't like being tackled, for example. So we'd have a game playing against another team and he'd get tackled. It was high emotion there because it was a trigger that it was always about him and having the ball. So we had to work with the parents, we had to work with him in training to go, look, it's all right if you get tackled, that means you need to come win the ball back. So it happens in football. And over the probably two seasons with him, he started to work out that I need to pass the ball, I need to share the ball. Someone might come and take it off me, but if they take it off me, then I need to win it back. It probably took a good 18 months for him to work that out. And, you know, when he started to win the ball back, he, oh, we've actually made some really good progress there. But that happened on a Saturday and it didn't happen on the Wednesday in training. It actually took time. Then we had to work with our players to go, look, you know, just because a certain player loses the ball and he doesn't want to go and win it back, they were getting frustrated. So the emotions then started to trigger on other players. So we started to do some individual work with this player. Then we did some group work with the team to go, if you're playing this game and you lose a ball and this player can't win the ball back, then you need to work together as a team to win it back. And over time, they started to work together to go, well, if he loses it, then we'll all work together to come and get the ball back. So it's little things like that, that don't expect things to happen overnight. And they do sometimes can take up to, you know, 18 months for these things to happen, but it's having that consistency in your approach as a coach to make sure that you allow the kids to have this time because you know, we don't know, you know, what, what triggers everyone. So yeah, that, that takes time knowing your players. I've had players in the past where, you know, even as simple as playing, I call it farmers, like where you've got to pull the tails out of each other using the bibs. And we had a kid, as soon as he got his tail taken, he'd sit down and not want to join in. So again, we had to work with him individually to go, this is the game you need to learn. Like, you know, losing your tail is, yeah, you've lost this game, but like, how do we make sure you not get your tail taken? We started off giving him two tails so we had two chances and then he started to build him into it and then again it's little things like that that we played around with stuff using the step principle giving him a bit more space giving him a little area that he can go into just to kind of not be tagged. And over time we got rid of that space. Then we got rid of that extra tail that it had. And then he started to gain our trust. So it's little things that we need to play around using step principle because I think that's really important especially as a coach when it comes to training but also in games where we can still use that step principle around you know the player and what you can do with that player to try and keep those emotions not in a jar but just kind of it's around their self, which is important.

[Jamie]

I find that fascinating really, like just in terms of dealing with, okay, it's not losing necessarily in a fixtures way, but in terms of like losing the ball or in terms of losing like a minigame when you've lost a tail, I find that fascinating insight just in terms of like it won't be something that can probably happen overnight, but just that process of figuring out that that's you know sort of something that the players need to learn, need to adapt to and it like I say it does actually take time to do that.

[Loz]

I think often when we say winning and losing, everyone thinks the game, actually there's individual things they might lose. So it might be losing the ball, for example, it might be not finishing a shot for it to go in. Might be a goalkeeper missing a save, losing a tackle. So there's loads of like individual things that happen in games that we need players to learn. And then over time that'll then build up into the result if that's where we're going to aim towards. But it starts with the player themselves. Like, you know, even as simple as, You know, one player that I've worked with in the past where, you know, she was a really good player, like technically and tactically, very good at playing football, but anything in and around the goal, she really struggled at times. She'd need probably five or six chances to get one goal. So her finishing was an area that we wanted to work with, but you could see the more the game went on and the more chances she got, the more frustrated she got. And it got to times where, you know, she was like, take me off. I was like, you know, you need to stay on because you know, your game time. So it was around giving her a set challenge. So we know you're going to get at least five chances in this next 15 minutes. So we're still playing 45 minute each half. In the next 15 minutes, your challenge is to get five chances. So in terms of her winning was to get those five chances. Once we started to get that, the second bit was, well, can you now get a connection on the ball? And then it then built onto, can you get a connection on target? And then the final one was connection and, you know, to either score or make the goalkeeper make a save. So we started to build, like I call it steps of success. So your first step was your movement to try and get into certain areas. Your second one was around your timing and your movement and your positioning to get into areas to get past the defender. Then as we built up, it was in like your technique to strike the ball, like your technique to push the player, push the defender away to get space. Then the final one was like the type of finish you were going to do to score. So over time, like her winning was, Oh, I've got five chances in these last 15 minutes. Or I've managed to get one on target now. And then over time, again, it wasn't, you know, in that all in this game, like the first game we did it was just get five chances. And then we started to build it up. So, you know, without speaking to the parents, working with my assistant coach to do that, this was back when I worked in America, like we started to play around with these ideas and you could see a really improving. And that wasn't just down to me as a coach, it was down to her as well. So often we say, well, it's always down to the coach to help players deal with emotions, but sometimes you've got to build that trust with the player, have that kind of verbal contract with the players. Yeah. And then, you know, towards the end of the season, she was getting a lot more success. So rather than like every six, cause she used to love stats and we used to say, look, how many chances are you going to get? And then over time, like her stats went, went like they got better. So she felt that sense of pride that she's got to where she got to. And then our role as coaches was to kind of facilitate that learning, but it was driven by her. So I remember the first time I said, look, you might have five chances. Well, how many do you want on target? She challenged herself to go, Oh, I'm going to try and do it in three. And then it was, Oh, I'm going to try and score one in three. Then over the season, she was, you know, really significantly improving. One of ball striking, she was then getting into better positions and She had a really good season towards the end of it. But if you met her 18 months before that, you know, it was this kid that was, you know, quite herself because it was a lot of pressure. She played for the state. She wanted to go to college to play. So there was quite a lot of emotion there. And she was going through puberty, adolescence, going through high school. So she was 14 at the time. So there's loads of things and loads of factors away from football that was probably a lot of weight on her. And then we just played around with some little things in training and then we took it into the game. And then, yeah, it was quite a nice thing to see towards the end of it where she started to get success and you don't think about that at the start, but actually when you see it come out in life and oh, we've done something quite unique there.

[Jamie]

Yeah, no thanks Shane, that's a great example in terms of like reframing what success is and then also it's like it's building resilience but it's also developing the player and then getting them to to control their emotions and how they're feeling on the pitch at the same time as well.

[Loz]

Again I've said it takes time and again not every player will like that This was quite a resilient player that wanted to do that. And I thought I can just take this and use with some other players. And I've tried that with other players and some don't respond to it as well. Some thrive on it. Some, you know, over time will go off. I quite enjoyed that. But yeah, I don't think that you can pick that up and use it with every single player. Cause you know, every player, every person is unique. Even if I said it, I'm going to work with you differently, Jamie, and you Louise differently, then that's absolutely fine. So I think the stuff we spoke about, don't think that you can just drop this into everyone in your team and it's around knowing the individual, working with the parents as well to know, especially with the young ones, because I've worked with eight, seven year olds and they're all completely different. They all respond to how I speak to them differently, respond to the other coaches differently. So yeah, there's definitely not like one, it's not like a one size fits all for everyone.

[Jamie]

Talking about like some of the other emotions that players might feel, and earlier you was talking about like how coaches have like a bit of work to do pre-game and you talked about body language as well. What would coaches maybe need to observe and notice if players are maybe feeling nervous and what's maybe a top tip to maybe help them with that?

[Loz]

I've definitely seen it in tournament football, seen it in cup football, I've seen it in league football where kind of there's points to be made or points to be won, especially towards the end of the season where you know, people, you know, it's where you can potentially win trophies and get promoted, relegated. So you can, and I think that adds an element of stress, emotion for players, but also for coaches. And I've had it where kids don't want to come on, where you want to bring them on, because they feel that if they make a mistake, it might have an impact on the team. So one of the things that I think it's about being consistent all the way through the season. So, and if you go to a tournament, being consistent all the way through. So, you know, we're big on giving any age group up to under 18s, always give the kids the same playing time. And I think sometimes that if your emotions change based on the environment that you're in, so it might be, you know, you've taken a under 15 team to a, you know, cup final and all the way through that cup run, you've had equal play time. You've allowed players to move potentially in positions, And then you get to the final and all that's moved to the side and you pick your best 11 and you don't put your players on that you meant to put on. I think that has an impact on your players. So for me, it's about being consistent all the way through your approach as a coach. And then the other one then is to try and create that environment where kids are eager to come on, whether it be a the last 10 minutes of a cup game, it might be the second half of a last league game that if you win you get promoted into the next division. So I think having that consistency from the start of the season or the start of the tournament or the start of a cup run all the way through will then hopefully alienate that emotion that kids might feel. Because if you've done something all the way through and then you get to the last bit and you're putting a player on for the sake of putting a player on when he or she should have come on earlier or you know you've changed your mannerisms as a coach I think that that has an impact as well so if you've been calm all the way through the season and you're quite calm at training then you get to this game where you've turned into someone different. You don't have to say anything, the players will pick up on that. So I think having that consistency all the way through then allows your players to have that safe environment. And I've seen it before, I've been out to see coaches before and you speak to the players and go, is he always like this? Or is she always like that? No, he's different. Why? Well, because we need to win this game and already I think you've potentially lost the players there and then there's probably a reason why they don't want to come on because they feel nervous because you feel nervous and that's hard again to regulate when you know there's a lot of people watching and you do want to win because we're not saying that winning is not important because it is important but I think it's winning in the right way being gracefully winning that if we can show that on a pitch, but I think, you know, being calm and humble, whether you win or lose, I think that's important. It shows a lot as a coach as well, that, you know, winning is important, but if you lose, that's fine as well.

[Louise]

How do you think you can create an environment where emotions both positive and negative are accepted and managed in a healthy way?

[Loz]

Good question. I like that one because we need players to show that wanting to do more and I think sometimes that can then help the team. So I remember I coached a kid, this one player, but he was, you know, very physical player, he was one that would love to tackle and it would then rile up our team. So If he made a big tackle, then it would like spark other players to get more involved in the game. And often you were like waiting for that one tackle from him, cause it will then trigger our team to kind of push up a gear. But at the same time, any decision made against him through the referee would like really trigger him to go, well, what do you mean? And like, so we had to really work with him there. So, you know, having that emotion was good in a way because it helped and he ended up being our captain when we got to under 17, cause he started to learn like, you know, his leadership skills. And we played around with some stuff. And the first time we did it was we used it in training. So me and the assistant coach were like, right, do you know what, tonight, we're going to give some really bad decisions. Like we're going to be that bad referee. We're just going to make some bad calls and we'll see how he reacts because usually that's what triggers him in training. Then next minute he will either do a really good challenge, which wins a ball in a safe way and then we can go in and play. Or he will do a challenge where he will give a foul away and we might concede a goal or we might, you might get a yellow card, you might get sent off. So it was kind of a fine line between the two. So I still remember it now. We're in a school, a primary school in Leeds where we used to train and he used to walk to training. So I was like, see now, cause he used to get the bus to training on his own with his friends. So I've seen as he was coming off the bus, I was like, how are you doing? How was school today? And then cause I was the bus driver, he was like, it was all right. Did you come with anyone? Then I came in with like the other two players that he got the bus with. So I was like, right, he's had a good day. So now we can play around with some stuff. So going back to the pre, it was little things there that I was asking him questions, but I was listening to how he's responding. If I'd have gone to high school and he would have gone, oh, I was rubbish, didn't do anything, then I would have gone, oh, probably not the right time, but he seemed all right. So we got into the session and again, body language was fine. He was doing the warmup. I was like, I'll lead the warmup tonight. You do it. So I gave him a bit of responsibility. So we're going to start with a game, just to go through that whole pothole approach, just to kind of let off some steam. They've been on buses, they've been at school all day so I was like right just first 15 just just play we're not gonna interact with you you just go and play after you warm up. So again observing watching and yeah it was I thought right this this would be good this And then got into the drinks break and I was like, right, we're gonna move on to some other stuff. And all it was, was just like a little possession game. And I was like, right, in this possession game, I'll make some decisions. And I remember it now, like the ball went out and he didn't kick it out. I was, oh, I think that was the other team's ball. And straight away you could see the, like not the snap in him, but you could just see like, like you could see it. I was like, oh, we're onto something here. So he was like, okay, just ignored it. And then it happened again, but I gave him the, so it was like in my head, right, that's one for him. I'm going to give him the right one now. So it's one to me now. And then session went on and went on. And then there was like a bit of a clip where he got fouled. And I said, play on. And that's when he kind of went, what do you mean play on? I was like, he fouled me. And he's like, oh no, I didn't see it. I don't think it was a foul. I think he won the ball. And then straight away, like he went from quite calm into this, like you could see him building up, building up. So that's when I thought, right, I could lose him here. He could walk away now. He could, I'm not playing now. I'm off. So I didn't do anything for the next kind of five, 10 minutes. So I left it. And then when we went back into a second part of the practice, so I started to work with him a bit more, then he went up for a decision, gave him another decision. That's when he not snapped, but he was like, what do you mean? That was my ball. I was like, no, it wasn't. I think it was his. And then started arguing with me in front of everyone. And cause I was like, what do you mean? And for me, it was quite good. Cause I was doing it in a way where kind of controlled that emotion for him. And I was like, look, I stopped it. I was like, everyone carry on. So I took him away, let the game carry on. So I didn't want him to be in front of everyone so spoke to him, got down to him, I look did that on purpose if we went back to the start of the session I gave one against you then I gave you one back and then I've given you two not the greatest decisions but I said I like the way that you handled the first two because that's what's been happening in games where the referee will give you decisions and it's not their fault. They'll only referee what they see. So in training, we've played around with this stuff And then someone clicked and he was like, oh, right, okay, I understand why he'd done that now. And for me, that was a big learning. And I think we like got that connection after that. And then after that in game, I'm getting goosebumps talking about it. And in games after that, he always looked at me when a decision came and I always gave him that, like just a little thumbs up. And for the rest of that season, every referee decision that was given against him, he just ran away from, just went, that's fine, just walked away. His emotions went from being quite hot-headed on the pitch to being the one that like calmed other players down. He would still make those big challenges, which was what he was good at. And his game changed just from that kind of, you know, that session we did, and then over time, we continued to do that. So like, tonight, I'm going to make some decisions against you. So we had that contract. So when he came, it wasn't kind of out of the blue. He knew that this would happen, but I was like, I'm only going to do it three times. And then for him, he was like, right, that's one. I know I'm going to get another one, but I don't know when they're going to come, but it's for me to control that emotion as I'm doing it or the other coaches doing it. And I think, like, we still worked with him, you know, technically, tactically, but it was that psychological and that social bit. Because I said, like, when you lose your head sometimes it triggers other players and they get nervous around you. So you need to be the leader. And then I think when we got to under 17, he was my captain because he was the one that controlled the players. Yeah. And that was just something that, yeah, started off seeing him get off the bus and knowing that he's all right. But again, going back to what I said earlier, what you said, Jamie, like knowing your player, like if I didn't know him and I hadn't worked with him for a year and I didn't recognise what triggered him, I probably wouldn't have been able to do that.

[Jamie]

Yeah and I think it's important there like saying like because you really knew your player there, that you knew what would work and also I like the fact where you mentioned that actually you went before training to say look this is gonna this is gonna happen make him aware. Like I say rather than just going out and just saying you know to everyone it's gonna happen to everyone there was a precise learning moment and the journey that it was right for that player that the journey that he's then gone on. So thinking kind of along those lines really like just kind of elaborating on the importance of knowing players want, players needs and what players really really need from you. How important actually is that because you mentioned in terms of like at the start of that story in terms of like checking in with that player to see how school had gone so you knew he was in the right frame of mind for you to be able to to support them in training with that issue in terms of like managing you know helping them to to manage their emotions but yeah how important is it to actually get to understand the needs? For instance, like something could have happened away from the pitch and you needing to know that. Equally, it might be that a player is neurodivergent, for instance, and they're needing that extra support.

[Loz]

Yeah, I think when we talk about, you know, neurodiversity, it's important that, you know, we know the stats are quite high around, you know, the number of kids with neurodiverse needs now. So for me, it's definitely working with parents to understand, are there any additional needs in your sessions? We've got a lot of resources on our England football learning website around, you know, player support cards. So we're not saying like every kid will fall under those categories, but it's really important that we know what triggers them, what calms them. So for me, you know, I've worked with players with autism before, so we know that having a, like a storyboard for the session really helps because they know exactly when things are going to happen. One of the things that I remember when I first started coaching, I was working in schools at the time. So doing like afterschool clubs and we used to have a couple of like pupils that came with autism. And I remember like, so went through the storyboard and this is what we do. And I was quite new to coaching at the time and I put my timings on. And I said at the start, like, you know, just because you've got times, don't think you need to stick to them. And this one kid was like, he was a stick of a time, like he had a watch and he was like, it's five minutes, we need to move on. So we, I know as a coach, like we can't just move on because it's five minutes. So me having my time on my storyboard meant that I had to move on because he was ready to move on. So for me, it was, that was a big learning curve for me. So the following week I was like, look, I'm going to take the times off today because I'm not sure. So I called them parts. So part one, part two, part three. And his head, it took the time away. So for him, he wasn't like stuck on just looking at his watch. So again, I know like health and safety, take watch off, but for him, he had to have his watch on. So for this boy, just by taking the time off my storyboard, he was able to then go, well, part one, I'm not sure how long it's going to be, but I know it's part one, part two, part three in today's like afterschool club that I did. And that's through working with the teacher because I went and spoke to the teacher after, he said, it really triggered him that we didn't move on on the timings. And you know, with coaching, like it's really hard to stick to timings because you don't know where kids are going to be at. So she was like, oh, have you thought about using a part process? So part one, whether it could be five minutes or 10 minutes, like he knows that part one is this game, part two is this, part three is this. So adapting it slightly differently really helped. And I think I've worked with players with ADHD before. So, you know, that really, the way I communicate and give my messages are really important. So one of the biggest things I learned as a coach was like, not speaking too long. We don't want kids to be listening to you. They should be out playing. So if I know there's players with ADHD where they can't sit still, they want to get moving. You know, we say on the CDF, like around fidget toys, to give them something to fidget with while you're talking. That could be a team talk, it could be a pre-game team talk that you might do where you might have to give a bit more information. You might be in for half time where you've got sometimes about 15 minutes, sometimes about five minutes. So you need to get information across. So giving them a fidget toy might help. When you're actively coaching on the pitch, I always have on my stopwatch, and one of my coach developers back in the day said like, as you're about to walk in, set your timer 30 seconds, like press start when you start. And if it's beeping, you've been speaking for too long. So I knew like when I'm coaching, I always wear a watch where I can set a timer. And if it's beeping, I say to the kids now, like if it's beeping, just go and play. So I was trying to get my messages across like your 30 second stopwatch. It was 30 seconds, get your point across and then get back out. So we know with ADHD, like the attention is significantly lower. So if I can get it across in 30 seconds, they can get back out and play straight away. So they're the little things that I've done in the past around neurodiversity, which helped me as a coach because, you know, storyboards, we often think we only use at school, like my wife's a teacher. So having storyboards, they know exactly what they're doing from the start of the day to the end of the day. She uses that across the day so they know they're doing this, this and this throughout the day. We can use that in sessions because the kids will be at school. Like so having that consistency of school and that hour of coaching that training can help as well.

[Louise]

I think that's really interesting and I guess that's where speaking to parents or carers or if you've got teachers in your life or kind of you can listen to any episodes where we've spoken to teachers or the PE experts and stuff like that. That's really important stuff that you can potentially build into your sessions I guess.

[Loz]

Yeah. I think like you know there's so much out there and you know even on our websites which help and yeah just because it's football coaching doesn't mean we can't take things away from like the PE space, you know, the work that we've done around the CDF, the online platforms that we've got, which can help. You might not be working with players with like specific disabilities, but there might be areas that you might pull away from that that can help you. And I'd say like even downloading the resource cards that we've got, just have a look at it and go, that might help with some of our players. So they might not be diagnosed with something, but you might go, you might read something and go, that might help certain players on my team.

[Louise]

Yeah. I guess it's just kind of different ways of communicating, isn't it? The more of those that you can figure out and like try and play about with, then it's only going to make you a better communicator in the end.

[Loz]

So I've done it as well around like, we've got WhatsApp groups now everywhere and even sharing the sessions with the parents at the start of the week. We did it not in the club that I do now, but in a previous club, we used to share what we're going to do because the kids were eager to know what we're doing. And often we know like kids that turn up is when we're going to have a game. So it's straight away and they know that the game is going to happen. Then we're going to go into some part practice and we'll go back into a game. So the kids, when they come in, they know what they're going to do that night. So there's a lot of stuff we can do free and using parents is really important. And we've done that with a player who's got autism. He needed to know what the session was about and what games we're going to do. So sharing the session plan with parents allows them to talk through the session. And then at least that player knows coming, well, I know what I'm doing. It's not kind of out of the blue. So yeah, it's just, I think the pre stuff is so important. I've said it quite a lot in this podcast. If you get the pre correct, then the rest of it should fall into place.

[Jamie]

Thinking about match day then, you know, obviously we would say like development is the main objective and the priority is that players are having fun and enjoying themselves and getting involved with the game. But we also appreciate people still want to be competitive and to win. So how as a coach can you help players understand that, also ensure they can control their emotions on the pitch as they try to win?

[Loz]

It's really hard. I'll go back to like my first game as a parent coach. So we've just done our first season. And when we talk about emotions, that first ever competitive, I say competitive, our first ever game as a team, for me, it was probably the biggest learning curve that I've had as a coach and also as a parent, because we played a team and they were, I say by scoreline, they beat us by scoreline. But for our kids, the amount of emotion after that game, some of our parents are like, I don't know what we've signed up for. Cause after the game, like we had, our kids were emotionally crying. Some were saying, I don't want to come back. Even my own little boy who absolutely loves football now was like, I don't want to play anymore. I want to go back to Sundays where we just go and have fun, don't want to wear this kit. So there was loads of negativity from that game. And then for me, I was like, well, what, what did we do as coaches that was wrong in that 40 minutes that we had? When I look back at like our behaviours is cause it was a new environment, even where we were stood, like stood on the side, the parents that we were playing against, they were quite emotional as well because it was their first game. So every time the other team scored, they were banging on the fences And then it triggered some of the players on our team, like even like our players were like, it's too loud. So it triggered them to go, I don't wanna play. So there was loads of different things that we didn't cater for, that we just thought, oh, we'll come to this central venue and we'll play. So then for me, it was then, right, how do we now bring these kids back? Cause we don't want this to be their first and last time of playing football. So what we did, we sat them down, we spoke to them and made sure that we said like, after every game we do handshake, we do high fives. Cause some of our kids was like, even my little boy was like, I don't want to do it. Like crying, didn't want to, just walked off. So again, I was like, this is quite tough as a parent. And so we sat them all down, spoke to them and said, look, yes, the score is this, but it's fine. Cause it's under seven, no one counts it anyway. But next week we need to be this, this and this. So we said like, look, what can we do as coaches? So the following week we met the coaches at the start. I said, look, it's our second game. The other team, yeah, it's our second game. Last week was quite emotional for us. I remember we drove past the venue and my little boy said, we're not going there again, are we? So this was like three days after. So it definitely caused something for him to think about that. So that pre-after was we spoke to both teams before the start of the game, spoke to the referee. I was like, look, can we just make it a nicer environment this week? And then the boys had a really good game that week. So Sometimes we just expect the kids just to do, but actually by communicating with them, trying to set that environment, speaking to our parents and speaking to their parents, okay, look, there's seven, some were still six at the time. So for them, we need to make sure it's really safe for them. And yes, we want to encourage, we want to celebrate goals, but it's not banging on the fences and shouting every time we score. So like we've got to the point now where it's the norm now. So straight after the game, the kids line up, they go and do high fives, they walk out together. So it's, they're the little things that have taken time to get to, but yeah, after that first session, that first game we had, I was, what have I put myself in for? But it was, it allows me to talk about it now around the stuff that we put in place to make sure. So any coaches that are doing their first season, who are into their first season now, it's like, don't just expect that they're going to just go into this game on that first week and just be alright, because there'll be a lot of things that trigger them that could impact their season.

[Louise]

And I guess it's one of those things that some kids might need to build up slowly so that they can continue to enjoy it and get used to it as they go. So we've talked a little bit about when things go wrong or when you've kind of lost a game, but equally, what have you said after there's a win when it comes to post-match behaviour? What kind of do you do there?

[Loz]

No, it's a good question that because we want to win. We need to learn to win as well. So everyone likes winning. No one likes losing. Depending on the game. I don't think that's different. Like it's all around keeping to your values, whether you win, lose or draw. So when we win, we've got to celebrate the win, but then also be humble in our win as well. So always make sure that we shake hands with the opponent, we shake hands with the officials, shake hands with the coaches and then obviously we go back to the debrief which is looking at our objectives so when we win, yes we've got to celebrate that win but then looking at how we won as well, so did we win in the right way? So I always set my team off with objectives at the start of the game. We always have objectives for the season. So when I look at not necessarily the under eights and the sevens I've coached now, but probably with older players where we've gone, this is what we're trying to achieve for the season. These are your individual objectives. These are our team objectives. So when we win, always think like, did you hit your individual objectives? So going back to the player that I work with around her finishing, did you manage to get those shots on target? Did you manage to score the goals that you tried to do? So always think about them to reflect on, yes, we won by the result, but did you win individually in terms of like, did you win your challenges? Did you manage to make your six saves? Did you catch the ball five times if you're in goal? So always try and bring them back to it around their learning and their development. So yes, we might have won 4-0 today. So we've kept a clean sheet. We've had 12 chances. So always get the players who are off to do tallies and stats because it keeps them engaged in the game. So yes, we look at the score depending on the age group that you're working with, but then look at like the overall performance as a team. And then we start building on, you know, I think that often then brings them back down to kind of being calm. So it then gets them to get into a deeper reflective mode back to the game. So when I worked in Academy football, we used to have like log books that used to write self diaries in. So after the game, be like right on your way on the bus or in the car going back, just write down, you know, three bullet points from today's session, like two things you did well, one thing you want to improve on next week, linked to their individual objective. And I've taken that into grassroots football, you know, often, you know, the ride home in the car is usually with mum, dad, carer, uncle, auntie, grandma, granddad, and it's often, oh, did you score today? Or, you know, what did you, well, actually, if we go, just think about what you did in the game, write it down, or it's now using technology. So get your parents to WhatsApp your thoughts, and it allows them to create that reflective vlog. So I think by giving them something to think about themselves, it brings that emotion, that brings that calmness back to them. Rather than, oh, we won 12-0 today, we had a really good game. Or, you know, you were shouting at the referee today, you did this, this and this, which it goes against our team's values sometimes. So I think by giving them things that they can think about themselves often gets them to think. So when you think you often get yourself to a level where you're calm. So I often will use that with my players to get them to think about themselves. And even with like eight, seven, eight year olds, it's, you know, they do it at school, two stars and a wish, like two things you've done well, one thing you're going to do differently next week. And if you can link it back to their own individual challenges that they have, that often helps. Done it with player cards, so the challenge cards that we see now, so give them a challenge card at the start of the game. This is your challenge, like look at your challenge card, did you do that today? Someone's like, oh, I did that today, I did really well with that. What can you do next time? I'm going to try that. Next week you can have the same challenge card, go and try and do what you just spoke about. So they're the little things that often we celebrate the win and then we bring them back down to kind of their own individual development because that's really important at any age that we're working with.

[Jamie]

And thinking about everything that we've discussed today, does any of this change depending on the age group you coach, either how they maybe express themselves or how you would handle situations?

[Loz]

I think It starts with you as a coach. So we've got the coach development framework and self is a key part of that. So it's yourself as a coach. So I think your emotions, your values, the way you coach should stay the same. Now, the way you communicate might be different. So I might communicate differently if I'm working with a group of six year olds to a group of 16 year olds. So, but my values aren't different. So I'll always respect them, respect their opinions. I'll always try and make the sessions fun and engaging whatever age group that I'm working with. So I think your values stay the same. I think the way you deliver your messages will be different. Working with an older age group, they might want more information based on the outcome that you want. So for working with a six year old might be, I just want you to try and stop that player getting past you five times in this game or, you know, I want you to try and win the ball back five times. And then you might start to drip the messages in. The older age group, you might get, you might go into a bit more information on that. So the way you deliver that message is different and the way you control your own emotions will be different depending on the context of the situation. And then going back to knowing the players, like even as a six year old, they might want more information. 16 year old might want just the bare minimum. So again, it's for you to play around with the way you give that message. And I think that's important as a coach that, yeah, going back to like, how does that player want that message delivered? Yeah, I've had 16 year olds that just go, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. I've had 16 year olds go, can you really tell me how to do it? To the point of like, which foot should I start off with to go and win that ball back? If I'm striking, what part of the foot do you want me to use? So that's different. So again, yeah, I think we've said it all the way through the episode. It's yeah, no, if you know your players, then that's the start. That's like, that's kind of the foundation of whatever coaching that you want to do with them.

[Jamie]

Brilliant, thank you very much for that Lodge. Well before we wrap up today's show, we just have a few quickfire questions to ask you. So first of all, what's one moment where you saw a young player really struggle with losing and how did you help them through it?

[Loz]

I've seen a player walk off the pitch when we were losing, so he'd take me off and that was really hard. So, you know, said, okay, that's fine. Come off. Then obviously it was roll on, roll off. So put the other player on. So took him away from the game we went away you know we were on a like a in a park so I was like we'll walk away why do you want to come off and it was down to his own performance what do you sound been rubbish today I didn't do this this okay let's break it down like why do you think that's happened And he just had a bad morning. That was all. So I was like, okay, when you're ready to come back on, you can come back on. But I didn't then bring him straight back in, you know, with the other players. So I was like, just have five minutes. And he still needs to, because I didn't have an assistant that day. So I was like, right, you to get another parent just to stand with the players while I just stood on the side. I was like, when you're ready to come back in, we'll get you back in. And every couple of minutes I checked in, I was like, how are you doing? Just keep watching, keep watching and let me know when you're ready. He didn't come back on for probably about 20 minutes and then it got to halftime. Halftime came, I was like, wait, how are you feeling? He was like, oh, I'm ready to come back on. Okay, gave him like no pressure now. Like, don't think about what you're trying to do in terms of challenges. Just go and enjoy the game. So I think dealing with losing, we were getting beat, but it was the score line was irrelevant there. It's around making sure that this player still enjoyed the game. So just go and enjoy it. If you want to come off again, don't just walk off. Just give me a signal that you want to come off. And I think by doing that, it helped him to go, it's all right to have a bad day or a bad game. Often you see players walk off the pitch and end up arguing with the coach. And it's like, oh, you're going to sit there and no one goes and speaks to that player. So sometimes you need to get around that player and just understand why they're feeling like that. And probably going back to me as a coach was, was that player ready to start that game if he'd have had a bad morning? So it's little things like that, that don't just expect them to be all right, go and speak to them, but don't go and, you know, don't go and shout at them and go, why have you come off? Like, you know, you can, the way you communicate will be really vital in that situation.

[Louise]

What do you want your players to learn when they've lost a game?

[Loz]

Yeah, I think like whether you win, lose or draw, they need to learn something. So why did they lose? You know, what could they have done individually to help the team from losing. I think in the moment I'm coaching in now, like winning, losing, as long as they come away smiling, like often, like the kids, they don't know what the score is. Like if you ask them all like what the score was, like they'll all have a different one. So we would say, depending on what you say is, what we got. As they get older, I think they need to learn to lose because that will help them in the future. So again, I think I've said a lot around self, like they need to understand like, why did they lose today? What could they do differently next time to stop us from losing? But especially in like the development age groups, it's for me, the score is, it's important, but it's not as important as their development. So we might have lost, but we might've done some really good stuff. I think especially now, like with cameras, like you can watch games back. So often, like I've done some coaching with a school where we've got the, you know, the benefit of a camera where we can watch the game back. So I often say, like, just watch back on your performances and kids love stats. So look at the stats, look at the percentage that you've had possession. We've been working on X, Y, and Z, look at all that coming out. So we might've got beat in the game today, but in terms of your development as a team, we're getting some really positives on that, but we got beat by one goal. That's all right today, but you've managed to do this, this and this. You've managed to cross the ball in eight times in the game. We've played forward X amount of times. We've been working on that in training for the last 12 sessions so you can see it come out. So next time you might be able to win.

[Jamie]

What's one thing coaches can do to help players control their emotions and behaviours and therefore perform to their potential?

[Loz]

Yeah, I think what a coach can do is start with themselves and regulate their own emotions. I've often seen really calm coaches and that mirrors on the team. So you see coaches that are quite loud, quite vocal and that plays out on the team. So my tip there for coaches is just be calm, like whatever age group that you're working with, you're calm, they'll be calm, and try not to shout at them too much. So if you want players to deal with pressure on the ball and you're giving them five or six different commands, then it's going to confuse them. So as the ball is approaching that player and you're shouting, shoot, pass, dribble, it's going to confuse them. So if you kind of take a step back, just enjoy the game, that allows the kids to enjoy the game.

[Louise]

What's something you wish every grassroots coach knew about kids' emotions?

[Loz]

That they're different. Yeah, I think every player is different and it's not one size fits all for every player. So yeah, for me, like for coaches to know that every player that steps on the training pitch, the match pitch, that they're going to have a different need and want from that game. And your role as a coach is to manage their different needs.

[Louise]

And if we were to ask you to kind of set almost a little challenge for coaches, who perhaps this is a bit new and they've learned something new from this listening to this episode. What's the one thing that you'd suggest they do first?

[Loz]

Go and experiment with your players in a way that you know put them in scenarios where they've got to deal with winning, losing. I used to love it. And when I coached, how old were they? Under 11, Academy football. And it was around playing with scenario cards. So it'd be like, right, you're one team, you're another team. You've got eight minutes left in the game. If you win, you get promoted. If you lose, you get relegated. And you've got 30 seconds to get yourself and work out your tactic. And it really built up that emotion. We had goalkeepers running up for set pieces. It really, that emotion went through the roof and play around with scenarios, like go into their world. Like a lot of kids play video games now. So go into their world through like the game of it. So used to do that all the time. And I still do it now with like, you know, you've got two minutes left, put the stopwatch on, like referee the game properly, put them through that emotional roller coaster that they will feel in a game. And if you can do it in a safe environment of a training session where you're in control as a coach, then you get some really good benefits from it. Like I've seen it where you see a different child in that situation. I still remember it now vividly, Like some of these sessions that I've done in the past where, you know, we've played around with scenarios and, you know, just even, I know it's not a final for 12 year olds, but even saying, I say Champions League final this week, it was a Champions League final. Then you're one team and you're the other team, it's two-one. You've got six minutes to go. I'm going to set the timer. Every time it goes, I'm going to stop it. It really, that really heightens our emotion. And it allows them to feel it, that they would feel in a game. And then after that six minutes, right, mix the teams up, We're going to do it again. This time, like you're one team, you're another team, but you've got two less players because one's just been picked up early on purpose. And one's not available, right? You've got six, you've got four, how are you going to deal with it? And it really gets them to think, but the team with four, you're winning by two goals, team with six, you need to score three to get through to the next round. So playing around with those scenarios can really like put them in that. Mindset. That emotional state, but you as a coach is controlling it. And then like referee in the right way. So often we see coaches, you know, they get to the game and they kind of stand back and have a chat, but actually if you get engrossed in the game where you are being that official and really doing the, you know, making the right decisions, or you might sometimes have to make decisions that go against certain teams to play around with their emotions, but if you do it in a way, then that's really important. And if we don't go down the scenario bit, then it might be actually keeping the score because often we get into a game at the end of training, it's what's the score and kids, you should be keeping the score. So again, like don't try and fabricate it, but like if you are going to do it, then you'll keep the score because kids want to keep the score. So yeah, you know, getting into their world is important.

[Jamie]

Brilliant. Right. Just before we do wrap up the show, we'll just squeeze in our swift session feature.

[Louise]

Yep. So it's another 30 second challenge. So like we did at the top of the show, this one we're going to ask you to explain a session idea to us in 30 seconds. Are you up for that challenge? Yeah. Okay. So once again, once you see the timer start, you can begin.

[Loz]

Yeah. So, the game I've got is 3-2-1 football, a game that I've done quite a lot. So you split your teams up however many players you've got. So we're a team of three. If you score first it's worth three goals, then Jamie you might score, it's three goals. And if you score again, it's worth two and one. And then you can't score again until you make an assist.

[Jamie]

Thank you very much for your time, Lodge. We've had you here for a while but it's been fascinating hearing your stories and I'm sure the listeners are going to take and anyone tuning in is going to take so much away from that. So thank you very much for sharing your experiences and hopefully you've enjoyed being in the studio with us.

[Loz]

Yeah, no thank you.

[Louise]

Yeah, thank you.

[Loz]

Good fun.

[Jamie]

Right, well that is all we do have time for today, but don't forget to check out the description for the transcription of this episode and for all our links to our platforms. As always, you can head to the England Football Community to post your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast, or simply you can drop them in the comments section for this episode.

[Louise]

Yep, we'd love to help you out so please do send your questions in. We'll be back soon with another episode. So if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss it. From all of us at England Football Learning, thanks for listening.