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[Jamie]

Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. As always, we're Jamie and Louise and today we're joined by Mark Lee, who's returning to CoachCast to give his communication tips and to talk about working with parents. Hi Mark, welcome back to the show, how are you?

[Mark]

Thanks Jamie, thanks Louise, yeah really good, really looking forward to it, thanks for having me.

[Louise]

Yeah it's really nice to have you back on again. It's been a little while, which so it's nice to have you back with us. Absolutely. For anybody that hasn't tuned into an episode that you've done before, can you just give the listeners a little bit of an idea of what it is that you do?

[Mark]

Yep. So my background is as a teacher, player, coach, coach developer. So I've been working for the FA for 11 years now in a variety of coach development roles in the grassroots game. Most recently, women and girls coach developer in London, the southeast region. We've been through a little bit of a restructure recently. So now have a new role, which is insights and evaluation lead for grassroots coaching. So really looking at an evidence-based approach to support the offer that we make to coaches in the grassroots game so we can make it more relevant and personalised to their particular needs. So really interesting chance to learn some new skills and hopefully help some more coaches.

[Louise]

Yeah, I was going to say it's a very interesting role.

[Jamie]

Absolutely, and talking about making things relevant to learners' needs. As you know, we like to start the show with just some top tips because coaches could be tuning into this right now on the way to training, so to kind of suit their needs we'd like to give them some good top tips.

[Louise]

Yep, so we're going to give you 30 seconds and we're going to ask you for as many top coaching tips as you can in those 30 seconds. Are you up for that?

[Mark]

Perfect, yeah. Let's go.

[Louise]

I'll show you the screen and then when you see it start you can begin.

[Mark]

Okay so first and foremost, understand why the players play and understand why you coach. If you want to take that on a broader level, understand the purpose of your sport and why your club exists. Linked to that, understand your values and be true to yourself when coaching. Coach the, understand the person before coaching the player. Make it fun, challenging and make it look like football probably would be the top things that I would go after.

[Louise]

Smashing. Even had a little time to kind of round it all up at the end, which was lovely. A little summery in

[Jamie]

the 30 seconds.

[Mark]

Couldn't think of anything else to say.

[Jamie]

There's some fantastic top tips there. Mark, as Louise said, it has been a little while since you've been on the podcast. So before we do dive into today's focus, we just wondered how things have been since you were last in the studio with us and what sort of things you've been working on recently?

[Mark]

Yeah sure, so at the start of start of the summer, so probably April-May time, been involved in delivery of the FutureFit program. So the key insights there are delaying 11v11 until later in the player's development journey and introducing 3v3 at under 7s. So we've done some engagement with county FAs and done some practical workshops with early adopter leagues and coaches. So again I think it's probably the next evolution, really exciting project, the next evolution of making the game fit the needs of the player.

[Jamie]

Perfect. Time to plug, obviously we did an episode on FutureFit with Folly didn't we at the start of this season. So anybody who's not aware of FutureFit, obviously great summary there. If you want to find out more, yeah, please do go and check out that episode for sure. Now today's episode, Mark, is all about communication and working with others, in particular parents. So to start, I just kind of want to think, what does effective communication look like to you?

[Mark]

Yeah, so first and foremost, I would focus on building relationships with others. So in order to communicate effectively with somebody, I need to understand where they're coming from. A good way of doing that is active listening. So I would say communication, we think about talking and giving our information, but I would start with listening and understanding the other person's perspective. That's probably the best way I'm aware of in order to build trust. And once you've got that trust and that mutual understanding of where the other person is coming from, it allows you to be more effective and not change your values, but modify your communication to meet the audience and almost find that common ground. So that would be first and foremost, really work building relationship and understanding others. Secondly, I would say be clear and concise. Talk less, so don't use long words. Think about your terminology and understand what it is you want to say and what the impact is that you want before you speak. So actually planning what you're going to say before you say it would be really quite helpful. And then the final one would be consistent in your communication because people won't, you know, audio people don't remember an awful lot of what you say. So I think if you repeat the same message on a consistent basis it's more likely that that message will be received in the way that you intend it to be. So I think that consistency, you know, from a player's perspective is really helpful whether they're at coaching or on a match day, they're in a stressful environment where they're trying to physically they're overloaded, potentially they're trying to process lots of information, trying to figure out new skills, socially and psychologically they've got a lot going on. So the more consistent you can be in that communication and using common language, simple terminology that players understand I think would be really, really helpful. From your own perspective I've already talked about be consistent with your own values, so you know whatever information you're communicating I think there must be that integrity there in terms of what you're saying and why you're saying it.

[Louise]

Yeah, definitely. How would you adapt your communication skills to cater to the age and stage of the players that you're working with?

[Mark]

The first thing is attention span. So attention span and complexity. So if I'm dealing with the younger players then recognize that their attention span is quite limited So short sharp precise, you know use few words Communicate your message quite quickly. Don't interrupt the flow of the session too often, you know So they get opportunities to continue their learning. That would be probably my first key. I think language and terminology would be the next thing. So, you know, we talked before the podcast started about different terminology and how sometimes, Louise, that can be confusing. It can be overwhelming if we're not privy to that information. Young people certainly aren't. So actually simplifying it and relating it to their world. So if I'm talking about defending rather than saying press, I'd probably go, help you mate. Swarm is another term I've used. Shield, keep them away from goal, those kind of terms that are really clever terms that in an instant young players will go, oh yeah I get that, I understand that and therefore because I understand it I've got a better chance of doing it. That would be absolutely key as well. The final thing is linked to communication and it's like whatever information I'm giving must be actionable so the player must be capable of acting upon it and doing it in the moment. So you know we we're really good in the grassroots game at drawing information from the top level That's really interesting and really aspirational for us to look at the top coaches in the game and go, yeah, I can learn from them. Really useful thing but recognise that your players are not yet the top players in the game. So, you know, it's no good saying to an eight-year-old, I want you to play that 30-yard diagonal crossfield ball, because physically, technically, they're not capable of doing it. So the information must be actionable as well.

[Louise]

Have you ever worked with neurodivergent players or players with disabilities? And how did you adapt your approach to communication to meet their needs? So if coaches kind of maybe are working with players like that.

[Mark]

Yes, I have. And I think the first thing to say on that Louise is we run a workshop called coaching disabled footballers and we've got a new workshop coming out working with neurodivergent players in grassroots football. So I think the first thing to say that change of emphasis is really important. We often think that, you know, players that play, whether it be para football, cerebral palsy, they're in a category. I don't coach disability football, so therefore that's not relevant to me. I think more and more what we're experiencing and understanding is that a lot of players with particular needs are playing in grassroots football, so all coaches probably need those strategies to help meet the needs of the individual. So I think first and foremost 95% of it would probably be just principles of effective communication. So build relationships, be clear, precise and consistent in your approach. I talked about understanding the individual before coaching the player. In this context the bit that would be the more nuanced and more personalized is understand the nature of what the person needs help with or understand the nature of the disability. So for example if I'm working with deaf players when I'm talking to them I need to stand where they can see my face so they can lip read. So simple things like that. If I'm working with cerebral palsy players, one of the factors for them is that physically they'll need regular breaks. So that might be that I schedule most of my communication while they're having a break rather than stopping the flow of the action because we're going to take regular breaks in any case. If I'm working with somebody with autism or ADHD for example then what I'm thinking about there is emotional control. So simple things like structure is really important for those kind of players. Emotional regulation as well, so structure helps with that. So I might use terms like, and show this pictorially as well, first we're going to do this, then we're moving on to that so they can start to get their heads around, okay this is the structure of the session. I might also use emojis for them to communicate how they're feeling, You know, so are you happy, are you sad? And bear in mind, those might be things that have nothing to do with the coach and the session. It might be stuff that's a carry over from other activities in the day, but actually understanding that awareness when people, your players aren't necessarily comfortable or well versed or skilled expressing their emotions. I think those are some useful strategies.

[Louise]

Yeah, definitely. The more we can expand our communication skills that are going to help all sorts of different people, then the better communicator you are, I guess. So it's not just about that someone needs specific things. It's like the more you can elevate your toolbox, I guess, of how you communicate, it's going to be really helpful for you.

[Mark]

Yeah, understandably. There's almost an anxiety or an apprehension about coaching players that we recognise with a particular, you know, need or disability. I think ultimately, you know, if coaches are prepared to have a go, they'll find that they have more skills than they know. There's always somebody there to help them. You know, the player or the parent are a really good source of information and advice to support. And I think at the end of the day, they're just players that come to football because like the same reasons everybody comes to football. They want to have a nice time. They want to be in a social environment. They want to improve their skills and they want to do something that takes them out of the everyday. That would be kind of my advice. I understand why people might be nervous, but generally speaking, it's if you've got some coaching skills and you've got some interpersonal skills, you'll be great at it.

[Jamie]

Just going back to something that you mentioned earlier on around like planning your communication effectively. What does that look like for you like in terms of planning communication before the session?

[Mark]

So I think the the first thing there is have a session focus so are we working on in possession out of possession? What area of the pitch are we working in, who are my key players. So in teacher speak you would use the term learning outcomes. So what are we trying to get out of today's session? If I was to use plain English I would say what do I want the players to know, do and understand that they didn't before. So what's my focus? So those learning outcomes give me some clues. So based on what we want to work on, understanding a little bit about my players helps me start to think about the session structure. So are we going to go warm up whole part whole, so we play a game, we then break it down into a part practice to improve a certain aspect, for example shooting or pressing, could be anything, and then we put it back into the game to see how they've embraced that learning. So if I'm going for a whole part whole approach, I'm not going to be giving information, stopping the practice during the whole because it ruins the flow of the session. I might go carousel approach where we have different activities going on in different areas. So that gives me a chance to refine my communication because I get several goes at it. I might go up the steps where it's unopposed into an interference or an opposed situation, you know overloaded, and then maybe a matched up situation. So probably in that situation that lends itself to giving more information earlier in the session and tapering off later. So those would be my starting points. Obviously understanding that different players within the groups have different needs so I might use the approach all some few so everybody's gonna get some information from me that's gonna help them be better at that particular thing shooting, passing, dribbling, whatever. Some will get some more information, few will probably get a bit of additional information so again I'm going for that not overloading them with stuff and making sure it's consistent with their both their footballing abilities but also their development stage so they are capable of taking on board what I'm saying. And then I'll just look at the flow of the session. Do I need to intervene for the benefit of the session, for the benefit of the whole group, a small group, or the benefit of an individual? And then it's that recognition, which is part, you know, more art than science, I think, is recognising when do I need to move it on. In teaching they call it with-it-ness, I know that's not a word, but it's that ability to recognise what's going on and recognising when do I need to change something. It might be an intervention from a behaviour management point of view, the players are starting to get a little bit bored. It might be an intervention from a, you know, getting them, jollying them up to increase their effort, or it might be, okay, here's some more challenge within the session so we can adapt the session. It might be that I just ask a question of the players and that then becomes really challenging because now I've got to think about how do I phrase the question. Am I just checking understanding and I want them to respond with it. Yep. No. Maybe. Do I want to delve a little bit deeper and you know, am I asking the question so I understand what they know? Am I asking the question because I want to empower them and go, I'm handing that ownership to you. So the various strategies, but hopefully that gives some framework to how we might think as a coach, we might think about matching our communication strategy to the intended outcomes, session structure, the needs of the players. Of course the other thing I should have mentioned is the environment. So your communication will change if it's a nice warm sunny day, players are happy to sit and listen. If it's battering down or it's really windy, it's battering down, you need to keep them active. So your communication changes. If it's really windy, they can't hear you. So then you've got to think about how you do that in different environments. You know, traffic noise, other things going on, on other pitches within the session are all going to impact how you communicate and when you communicate with your players.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I absolutely love that answer and I find it fascinating in terms of the way you're mentioning that you're already thinking about like the session structure and when the best time could be to actually not just intervene but actually give the information and not disturb the flow of a practice. And then of course you mentioned players with additional needs and obviously when do they need support and how do they need support crucially. So there's actually quite a lot of planning that's involved with communication isn't there?

[Mark]

Yes, I think there is. But again, I wouldn't want coaches to have paralysis by analysis. So sometimes, you know, if you're a coach, you're going to be in the moment and you all you can do is your best within the moment. I suppose for me, it's thinking about impact. You know, what's the impact of me intervening in this moment? If I'm not sure, probably err on the side of caution and stay out the way. You know, a friend of mine once said, used the phrase, don't break up a great party unless you've got something better to do. So from a football perspective, if they're playing and they're having a good time, unless I can really add value, I probably need to stay out of the way and just think and observe. And I suppose the other thing from a coach's perspective is recognition of where to observe and what to look for. So it's this idea of if you're looking at an individual player, the before they receive it, the during the activity and then the after is a good structure. If you're looking at, you know, the whole group, it's on the ball, around the ball, away from the ball, might be some simple, simple structures. And again, that observation skills is aligned to where the coach is at in their technical, tactical understanding the game, because if I don't know it, or I'm not looking in the right place for it, then I can't say it. And we're all on that journey of kind of improving our craft and also improving our knowledge of the game. So again, you know, from coach's point of view, don't beat yourself up if you get it wrong. We all get it wrong a hundred times a session, but it's just that awareness and trying to, I suppose I would summarise it by going, put the player at the centre of the process and go, if I was a player in this session, would I be enjoying it? Yes or no? Would there be a chance that I could be learning something and see it from their perspective.

[Jamie]

Well communication is key to the next part and the next topic that we're going to cover which is working with others which is ultimately why we've paired them up in this episode. So what are the common challenges coaches face when working with others and how can they overcome them?

[Mark]

Common challenges is everybody sees the world differently. The game is, it evokes emotion and passion among people. So if we see the world differently, we see the game differently. So I suppose it's that difference of perception and difference of opinion in terms of my values and your values, philosophy, way of going about things. You know, so what are, what is our process and procedures? What do we focus on? What are our priorities? And also the methods and the manner in which we intervene. So do I ask a question? Do I let the game largely learn by trial and error? Do I need to be giving them information? And all of those strategies, communication strategies, are relevant at different times for different players. But it's I suppose that difference of opinion in terms of how we see things and you know what our understanding of effective coaching and effective communication is. It'll be different for every single one of us. And for grassroots coaches, particularly for their start of their coaching journey, probably still trying to figure that out for themselves. So first and foremost, I've got to understand what I stand for and there's lots of different ways, but what my approach is and what my understanding of effective coaching is. So that's the first thing for me to figure out as a novice coach or grassroots coach and then I've got to try and line that with yours and that's probably for me summary of the challenges that grassroots coaches would face when working with other coaches. We all see it differently and where's that common ground and oftentimes we're not adept at having those conversations. Classroom coaches don't have lots of planning time. The first time they might get a chance to speak to one another is when they turn up on the side of the pitch and there's a dozen and one things going on. People are talking to them, they're thinking about the session. So it's that, yeah, it's that one, recognising the differences and two, how and when do we have that conversation so we can kind of find the common ground.

[Louise]

In your opinion, thinking about kind of grassroots football and the environment there, what does working well with others look like in that environment?

[Mark]

Having clarity on what our values are and what our philosophy is in terms of that can be how we treat people and how we want football to be played. So generally speaking in development football you'd want a possession based approach that focuses on dominating and retaining possession Whilst looking to progress and score goals and then trying to stop the opposition doing so. The reasons for that is all the development Aspects that come out of that in terms of different movement patterns contacts on the ball for defenders, for midfielders, for strikers receiving in different ways. They won't have forgotten when they get to adult football how to kick the ball long, but if we've just focused on that direct play at a very young age, then we miss out on, or the players miss out on lots of development opportunities. So understanding that, what's our philosophy on how we treat people, how we play football, what effective learning looks like, what are the processes and procedures we put in place, so what does training look like, when do we start, Is there a common structure? And then I think probably the biggest one, once we've got those things in place in terms of our expectations of what it looks like on training and on match day, Understanding and respecting what's my role, but understanding and respecting the role and opinions of others. So for example, if I'm a lead coach in a certain situation, my job is to communicate the content or the activity. So this is what we're doing. This is why we're doing it. And then this is my role. This is your role. So my role will be to lead the session, to focus on the main topic and probably the primary players that relate to that topic. So if it's playing out from the back, primary players would probably be my back unit, my goalkeeper, and probably my holding midfield players. Then it's to to have a discussion or explain what the role of the assistant coach is in that environment. Is it to work on, so we're trying to play out of the back, Is it to work on the opposite side of the coin and focus with the other players on pressing high to try and stop us? Is it to focus on particular individuals or a particular unit? Is it as kind of a mentor to me to kind of remind me, oh, you said you were going to do that, make sure you don't forget that. So that's clear and consistent so everybody knows what each of our roles are. Giving the assistant coach opportunities to do stuff, there's nothing more demoralising than bringing somebody in and then all they do is put out cones. So I might say as a lead coach, Oh, I want my assistants to be more proactive, but if I'm dominating the entire session and I don't create any space or opportunity for them to have a go, that's going to be a challenge. And then for the assistant coach to understand how and when they communicate. Because we've talked about letting the activity flow, letting the players play. So if I'm in the role of assistant coach, I'm clear about what the topic is, I'm clear about the players I'm working with, what my role is, but also clear about when can I intervene, because what we don't want is a he said she said scenario where lead coach stops it and then we're about, they talk for a minute or two, the players are stood there going yep, yep, looking to get on with the session, or just before you go back in, then I chip in, and that prompts the other coach to say something else, and it just expands and expands? So realistically, I would suggest that the lead coach controls the group. So if, Louise, you're the lead coach, you stop the practice whenever you want, I can only talk to the players that I need to talk to when you've stopped it. And when you say we're playing again, then I step out and I'm observing and fulfilling my role.

[Louise]

Yeah, it's kind of, you can see how like that clarity that everybody can understand their role and where it would just kind of clear a lot of stuff up and make things a lot easier to work through and work with.

[Mark]

Yeah, definitely. And I think for grassroots coaches, it's really hard to expect them to know and be able to do all that early in their career. So I've been coaching 40 years now. I didn't know that stuff. You know, if you'd have said to me when I first started coaching or even a few years into my coaching career, what's your philosophy? I don't know. You know, I just go out there and I put on a session and hopefully it's OK. So there's, you know, we've got to respect the fact that sometimes that takes time. And we've, you know, we've I think again, don't be too yourself.

[Louise]

Is there a way you'd suggest, so if coaches work for a team or work within a team structure where there's lots of different people with different roles and this isn't happening. How would you suggest they kind of bring that about? Would it just be something they just ask questions of the lead coach perhaps or?

[Mark]

Yeah, definitely. I think probably the first thing is schedule a meeting. So you know, sometimes if the only time you get to talk is while the session's going on, that's not ideal because one, you've got limited attention span and two, you've got other things to be dealing with. And also it's probably quite emotive because generally speaking not always but mostly when we're coaching we're in a heightened state of awareness because we need to be in order to put that enthusiasm across to the players. So probably schedule a time to meet. I think understand different perspectives we've talked about from a practical point of view play to people's strengths. So if you're really good at tactical work, then that's the bit we will set you. If you're, Jamie, really good at technical work, then that's the bit we set you. If I'm really good at relationship building, then that's the bit. So first and foremost play to our strengths and reference different session structure. Carousel is a really good format for assistant coaches working with lead coaches. Carousel is players work around different stations, which means if we've got a large group it's a way of managing those, particularly as we've just been through preseason coaches might have large groups of players that time of the year, but a new coach that might be acting as the assistant, they get a chance to see somebody else do that session and then they get a go themselves or they get several goes to refine their process and again I think the other thing is being entirely supportive and again I think one of the biggest challenges for all of us in coaching is ego And if we can set our ego aside and say, look, we're all here to help the players. I know that's easier said than done sometimes, but yeah, set aside that ego and go, look, this person can really help. So therefore be entirely supportive in and around the session and then pick up that conversation thereafter. Yeah.

[Jamie]

In grassroots then, I suppose it depends what age group you're coaching, but it's likely coaches will need to be communicating with and working with parents. So how important is it that coaches get that relationship right?

[Mark]

I think it's really, really important that you engage with parents. So first of all, have conversations away from the game or away from training sessions if you can, so that time when they're picking up, dropping off or it's before the activity starts. Maybe a parents' evening at the start of the season to explain your rationale, how you do things, why you do things, I think is really important. Probably in the same way that we get coaches and players to sign up and agree a code of conduct, I would get parents to do that. Keep it short, keep it quite simple in terms of this is your role as a parent, this is how you can support. I think explaining the impact of parents, whether it's coaching on the sideline, disagreeing with you publicly, explain the impact that that has on their child. Because in my experiences, parents, 99.9% of the time, parents are well meaning they want the best for their child. Sometimes the way that that manifests itself is not entirely helpful to the child, you as the coach, and maybe other players within the group. So explaining that that consistency of message is really key and how they can help reinforce those messages, so also make almost make an ally of them. And then I suppose ultimately from the code of conduct beyond that is if it's persistent, explain the sanctions or consequences of their continued action. So yeah, I think that would be probably how I would go about that.

[Jamie]

I suppose it's not just with parents but with anybody, like building relationships with new people can maybe be a bit daunting, but in terms of this question around coaches and parents, if it is a little bit of a daunting, say there's a new coach, don't know anyone, do you have any top tips to help them get to know the parents? Nick Page

[Mark]

The first thing is, again, we talked about building relationships and active listening to understand so I think the first thing from a coach's point of view is try and understand a little bit about your parents and try and be supportive of the parents because they're your best ally ultimately And again, I think if you think about it, if what the coach is telling the player and what the parent is telling the player, if they're different, first of all that's challenging and potentially anxiety inducing for the player, particularly on match day. But also it's not an argument you're going to win. You spend two, three hours with them. Parents spend a lot longer with them. So yeah, just informal discussions about what's going on in their life. So are they a single parent and they're, you know, struggling to cope potentially, and they've got lots of demands on their time. So they're rushing there and that. They can come to the training session or the match day in a state of anxiety. Do they have other siblings and other activities? Do they have demanding or complicated you know work life where there's other things going on? Have they just moved to the area and they're trying to integrate into the local community and this is a way of doing this? You know, is their child struggling to settle in school? These kind of things can all give you an insight to go, okay, I now understand a little bit more about why the person is behaving like this. So again, a friend of mine once said, you know, all behaviour is explainable once you get the context. So actually understanding that context helps you again, be a little bit more empathetic, be a little bit more caring, see it from their point of view, but that doesn't mean you compromise entirely your principles, your values, because you've got other players, you know, that you are responsible for, duty of care for, and it's got to be a positive experience for all. You know again I think the first opportunity to do that is your parents, parents meet parents and players meeting, start the season, keep it short no more than an hour, provide food because they're probably coming from work and they've got kids that probably need to be at school the next day, provide some form of entertainment or whether it be a creche or whatever, because they probably bring younger siblings with them. And that gives you the first opportunity to set out your ways of being. And I talked about at the start, you know, understand the purpose of youth sport, but also understand why your club exists. So again the reason you explain those things is so parents can make a choice. So if they see things completely differently, we go with a strategy of everybody plays and a parent says well I need my child to play all the time because they've got potential, there'll be another environment and another club that offers that somewhere up the road. But it's really about clearly communicating this is what you get, this is what we can promise you if you come to us in terms of clearly setting out expectations. And then I think what that then gives you is if there is a challenge or there's a problem emerged, what you're not doing is focusing on the individual. You can refer back to your code of practice and values and effectively we agreed to do this. This is not happening. So you're focusing on the behaviours, not the individual, which kind of depersonalises a little bit, which hopefully deescalates it a little bit as well in terms of any kind of conflict situation.

[Louise]

Yeah. And then obviously parents and carers can be really helpful kind of helpers and with teams and stuff. Have you got any tips on how you might engage or recruit people into kind of help?

[Mark]

Yep. So I think the first thing is if you've got somebody that is, and again one of the challenges for grassroots coaches is a parent that might know more about football than them. So I think the first thing is can you recruit them? Can you get them on side? So then you're playing to their strengths, you're mitigating one of your areas of development, so you're kind of going that's a win-win. But what that doesn't mean is, just because that person might know a bit more about football than you, you have a responsibility to the whole group, so you maintain that control of how things are done. So that's the first thing I would suggest. Potentially a rotor system where people have a go. So I think one of the reasons that parents won't step over and actually take an active role is because they think, oh this is 10 months of the year, it's every Thursday night and it's every Sunday morning. That's a lot. So that recognition of, we'll run a rotor system, You don't have to be there every time. You may not want to run a rotor system because then that takes time to manage, which can actually be more demanding than, you know, the time you save with people doing other jobs for you. And also that might not necessarily play to people's strengths. So what you might implement instead is a buddy system whereby you recognise that two or three parents have some really good skills that could enhance the environment and the coaching, but you don't say to one person, can you come every single week? You say to two or three of them, can you help out on occasion? So it's a kind of toe in the water. And it means that if they've got a family commitment one Sunday, they don't feel that dilemma that they obligate the team, but they also have a life outside of football. So I think that's probably a nice balanced perspective. The other thing I would say is we have a workshop that's part of our local County FA CPD menu this year called Stepping Over the Sidelines. And what that does is it talks about transferable skills that people can bring from other areas of their life that's not just all about football and actually gradually introduce them to the opportunity to have a go.

[Louise]

Brilliant. And I guess like you were saying before, getting to know the parents and kind of understand them a little bit more would only help that as well. So yeah.

[Jamie]

Of course, sometimes parents and carers can be a little bit of a challenge. Like you say, they want the best for their child, but sometimes can be a little bit of a challenge with coaches. So thought it'd be good to get some of your insight to a few almost like scenarios. In your opinion, what should a coach do if a parent is maybe coaching from the sideline themselves and maybe being a bit overbearing and it's obviously pressuring their child?

[Mark]

So in an ideal world, I can deal with it later because it's kind of lowish level, but it is something that's contravening our expectations and how, you know, it's having a negative impact on the kids that are playing and we need to make that clear to the coaches. So I might start quite low level and just reinforce the code of conduct and our expectations to all parents in the hope that that individual or individuals might actually go, oh yeah, that's possibly me. So I might start with that. In my experience, that doesn't often have the desired effect because the ones that have that self-awareness are probably the ones that are not saying stuff out of turn in any case. So then it would be a case of having that conversation with the individual directly and I would do that one away from the game so try and organize a meeting separately whilst recognizing you're asking somebody to come in special but it's certainly before the game I would avoid straight after the game because emotions are running high so try and do it in a neutral environment away from prying eyes so I wouldn't do it publicly on the side of the pitch if I could help it. I'd do it when I was in a calm state and the other person was in a calm state. I would reinforce our values and reinforce our code of practice. Get them to give their perspective and again explain that probably well meaning, highly likely it's well meaning, but again go back to explain this is the impact on contradictory information, this is the impact on your child. Again, that's a difficult message for a parent to receive because one, they're probably thinking, I know my child, I know football. Yeah, absolutely. But sometimes we can't see what others can see. I might have somebody else in the environment, you know, so that message reinforced by somebody else or whether it's the safeguarding officer, whether it's an assistant coach or somebody that offers a different perspective to me might be quite useful and ultimately I'd reinforce the consequences. All of those things apply if you feel that it's having such a negative impact that you have to deal with it in the moment. So all of those things still apply. The challenge is, can you remain calm in the face of that situation? So yeah, if I didn't have to deal with it in the moment, I'd probably defer it, but sometimes I recognise that's not possible. So all of that information still applies. Ultimately in terms of when I'm dealing with any situation, I will always look at it on three levels. So what's best for the individual? So that would be the parent and the child. What's best for the group? And then what's best for the club? And ultimately the what's best for the group and what's best for the club at some point might supersede what's best for the individual. So that then might lead to a, you know, some kind of sanction where you miss a couple of training sessions, you miss a couple of games. Ultimately it might be, we'll invite you to leave the club, which is an ideal. That's the last option because you're actually penalising the child potentially for the parents actions. But at some point you've got to look at the bigger picture in terms of the needs of everybody else in the group and the reputation of the club. You know if that's creating an unpleasant environment for match officials and other clubs then that's something to look at as well.

[Louise]

It's really, it's a complex problem. But yeah, it's really good to hear your insight on that. So if it was a situation where you felt like you really did have to speak to someone straight after a match or in the moment, when emotions are heightened and kind of, it feels a little bit less straightforward. How can coaches improve or adapt their communication skills for that do you think?

[Mark]

Give yourself some time first and foremost. So first of all I would deal with the players. So there needs to be a cool down, there needs to be a thanking of the players for their efforts. And again, similar to the players where I wouldn't talk about the what's actually happened. I just thank them for their efforts, explain what happens next. So at training, see you at training seven o'clock on Tuesday. This is what we're going to be working on. We'll pick up anything from the match day then, unless anybody particularly needs to speak to me, and then I'd send the players away and that then gives me an opportunity where I've had probably five, ten minutes to collect my thoughts and if I could avoid it I would, but I respect the fact that logistically sometimes the only time you see those parents is at match day. So then I think I'd make sure I had somebody else with me and I would just thank the parents for their efforts, focus on again just reinforcing our values and just say look you know some of the things that are happening are not particularly helpful to the coaching team but more importantly to the players just remind us this is how we do things at this club this is what we've agreed and again it's that implied consent where They've signed the piece of paper that says code of conducts whether they agree with it or not they've agreed to it So just to reinforce those in the first instance part of me would like to engage Parents in a discussion, but I could see how that could go badly wrong on the touchline So what I'd probably do is say, look, you know, go away and think of it. I'm going to make myself available at training half an hour before, half an hour afterwards. If you want to pick up a individual conversation then if you want to contact me during the week, we can set up a call or I'll also be available prior to the next match at this time. So yeah, give that message so it doesn't fester, it doesn't escalate and it becomes almost, for want of a better term, a bum fight where everybody's chipping in with, oh what about this? Tell them what we expect from them, give them some time to go away, but give them that forum to come back. Because I might learn something valuable from the feedback that comes back our way. But probably not doing that in the moment because you might end up with a kangaroo court style scenario which you'd want to avoid and also the fact that people will have to get away because the kids will need to be taken elsewhere etc etc.

[Jamie]

Yeah I think it all goes back to even like with really building relationships with players or with another co-coach or anything, it's just getting on the same page, understanding who each other are and I say having that almost at the start of the season or like you've said like training before or after training, whatever, just getting everybody on the same page isn't it? Because ultimately they all want, you know, their child to enjoy playing football. That's exactly what you as a coach wants as well. It's just getting everybody on the same page, isn't it, ultimately?

[Mark]

Yeah. And I think the other thing that I haven't mentioned yet is acknowledging that sometimes you get things wrong yourself. You know, once you've got that relationship and once you've built that trust, definitely advocate that for the player. So there's no reason you shouldn't do that with the parents and go, look, just the grassroots volunteer doing my best here. Yep. So there's, there's a lot of power in actually acknowledging that you get things wrong from time to time without giving all your power away by opening up the, you know, it becomes a kind of decision by committee you're still in charge and set in the direction.

[Jamie]

It's worth noting, I think we'll put a little bit of a plug in before we start wrapping up there the show, I think it's worth noting that if anyone does want to learn more about working with parents, they can head over to our YouTube channel because there are some webinar highlights on there which you will find under the title of how might I get the support of parents and carers in my sessions and on match day which Mark, you was actually a part of. So definitely go and check that out. Find out Mark and all the panels sort of insight onto that if you want to learn a little bit more. So Mark, we've just got a few quick fire questions for you now. So yeah, just a little bit of a challenge before we wrap up. First one is what's your number one tip for coaches when it comes to working with parents?

[Mark]

Communicate consistently and on a regular basis.

[Louise]

And what's the biggest communication mistake that coaches make?

[Mark]

Reacting in the heat of the moment. So if at all possible, try and take a breath, take a step back, buy yourself some time to think about what you're going to say before you say it.

[Jamie]

And the final quickfire question for you, if you could give one piece of advice to help coaches work better with others, what would it be?

[Mark]

Active listening to build trust and understand the other person's perspective before giving your thoughts or opinions.

[Louise]

It's really important, yeah. Absolutely. So, looking back at everything we've discussed, can you summarise your key top tips that you want coaches to take away from this episode?

[Mark]

Work really building positive relationships, active listening to understand the other person's perspective and be clear, concise and consistent in your communication.

[Louise]

And so after people have listened or watched this episode, they might want to try some of these, the things that you've kind of suggested. What would be the first thing you suggest someone might do, like a little challenge for them to try?

[Mark]

The challenge I'll set coaches is next week, either at training or match day, try and have a conversation with three parents, ideally those you don't often interact with, and can you learn one thing about the parent or their child that might help you adapt your coaching to meet their players needs?

[Louise]

Yeah, brilliant.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it's a really nice challenge to take away it is. Right, well Mark, we are coming up to the end of the show now, but it does mean we just have time for our swift session feature.

[Louise]

Yep, so it's another 30 second challenge. You may remember it from last time. Did you do it last time? Do you remember? Yeah.

[Mark]

I was trying to remember what I did, so I don't do the same thing but I think I'm good.

[Louise]

Yeah, it's a 30 second challenge where we're going to ask you to explain a session idea to us in that time. So you ready on this one? I will again show you the timer once it starts you can begin.

[Mark]

So it's a 2v1 in each half, so a pitch with a goal, 2v1 in each half with a keeper and players out of possession are locked in. So the challenge for the team in possession is how do we get the ball into the attack in half, how do we create space and an opportunity to score and how do we defend against the counter-attack. I like this practice because it looks like the game and sets players multiple challenges physically, technically and tactically.

[Louise]

Once again, spot on, perfect, spot on, Perfectly done.

[Jamie]

Is there anything that you want to add to that or are you pretty happy with that? You got everything in in 30 seconds.

[Mark]

Yeah, just thanks for having me and good luck to all the coaches that give their time voluntarily to coach the game in this country. Like literally grassroots football couldn't operate without you. So thanks very much. You're doing a great job.

[Jamie]

What a fantastic message to end on. Thank you very much for your time today, Mark. It's been great having you back in the studio and plenty of top tips for everybody to take away. So hopefully you've enjoyed the experience and yeah, hopefully we'll have you back on again soon.

[Mark]

No, thank you very much, Jamie. Thank you, Louise. It's been a real pleasure discussing football and ideas to help grassroots coaches with you this afternoon.

[Jamie]

Right, that is all we do have time for today, but don't forget to check out the description for the transcription of this episode and for all the links to our platforms. As always, you can head to the England Football Community to post your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast, or you can drop them in the comments section for this episode.

[Louise]

Yes we'd love to help you out so please do send your questions in. We'll be back soon with another episode, so if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss it. From all of us at England Football Learning, thanks for listening.