Please Note: The transcript is automatically generated by Supertranslate.beta in case you come across any typos or misquotes during your reading.
[Jamie]
Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. As always I'm Jamie and I'm here with Louise and today we're chatting to Chris Welburn, an FA Regional Coach Developer, to hear about his journey so far and to talk about building relationships with players. Well hi Chris, welcome back to the show, how are you?
[Chris]
Yeah really well thanks, thanks for having me on.
[Louise]
It's really nice to see you again. And for those people who perhaps didn't catch the last episode that you were on, do you want to give us a bit of a lowdown on what your role is and kind of what you do?
[Chris]
Yeah, I've been at the FA for 10 years now. I've got a regional coach developer role, work with players and coaches alike and hopefully just try and add some value and develop the game if we can.
[Jamie]
Well just before we kind of discover a little bit more about you Chris and also your experiences, as this is a coaching podcast, coaches could be on the way to training right now while they're tuning into this so we always like to give them some good advice at the top of the show.
[Louise]
Yep, so we've started calling this the Arrival Activity so it gives you a bit of a chance to warm up. So we're going to give you 30 seconds and we're going to ask you to give us as many top coaching tips as you can. Are you up for that challenge?
[Chris]
Yeah, no problem.
[Louise]
When the music starts you can begin.
[Chris]
Fantastic, so connect with your players on training when you get there. Think about plan A, plan B, plan C based on your numbers. Try and have as many arrival activities as you can to engage, motivate and connect with the players. Think about the needs, wants, motivations. So what's the day been like for the players? Have they had a good day, bad day? How can we support them? How can we help them? Think about training looking like the game, so how can we make things as realistic and relevant to the game as we can.
[Louise]
Perfect, slightly over but that was perfect, I think it was a really good collection of tips there.
[Jamie]
Yeah absolutely And probably some that we'll touch on there in the show as well with regards to building relationships. But first, we'll move on to the main part of the show, Chris. And we always ask our guests to start this section off. What was your first experience of football like?
[Chris]
Well, I first started five, six year old. I was at a club called Guiseley Dynamos, a really good starting point for me. I ended up playing there for probably around about 10 or 11 years, so it was a really good foundation. I had probably two influential coaches at the time, so a number of coaches within the Allen family, really strong role models for me. I was standing for driving club values, ethos, standards. And then another coach called Lance, who was based out of Bradford at the time and came and did some sessions. But those coaches remain probably fixed in my mind as a really positive start into football. Really enjoyed the opportunity to go to training, play matches. You know, sometimes in those days I think I was playing two, one in the morning and one afternoon and you know without that parental support if you like as well in terms of you know my mum and dad driving me across parts of Leeds and parts of Bradford to play games every Sunday and getting me to training. I don't think I've had such a positive start in grassroots football.
[Louise]
It sounds like you had some really good role models around you, whether it was coaches or your parents obviously taking the time to allow you to play. Thinking of the role models that you had, did they kind of influence you to get into coaching?
[Chris]
I think so. So I essentially started playing, probably really liked my coaches. I really liked that connection, the care, the sessions that they ultimately put on for us as players. Because I was in club for quite a long time, I stayed with those coaches throughout my journey really as you went through the age groups. And then I think I got to about 15, 16 and was really enjoying sport and activity. And then I met a gentleman called John Hall, who essentially is probably a mentor to me still now and managed me when I was in my previous role at Leeds Metropolitan University and you know still stay in touch with him now but I met him at 17. He was a football development officer out of Leeds City Council at the time and I went and did my junior team managers course as it was then. So I started off of that at 17 years of age and then ironically two weeks later I think I just clocked over to that 18 years of age mark and I loved it so much and a space came up available on the level two coaching course as it was. Same venue, seems to just align really and everything felt really natural and jumped onto that one and never looked back really. So I think as I say, coaches building up, a real love of the game, playing football, district, county, really enjoyed that. And then ultimately that passion for coaching started at probably 17 and I think straight after that I did a Saturday morning coaching school with a great guy, Lee Poole. We did that for a couple of seasons so every Saturday you would be up 8.30 putting the goals up. We'd have the children from 9 through till 11, put some practices on for them and hopefully make it as fun and enjoyable for them as they could do. And then, you know, built on progressively through there with a number of roles that I've gone on to since that date. Can you give us a
[Jamie]
bit of insight into what your experience was like the very first coaching session. How did you feel and how did it go?
[Chris]
I can remember the Saturday morning coachings quite vividly really. I look back on those moments quite fondly. So, you know, you'd be arriving, getting everything set up and then you'd have probably around about 40, 50 children arrive for this coaching school on the morning and you know there'll be three, four of us as coaches and then we'll be splitting them into groups and you'd be trying your best to try and sort of like one, keep them motivated, two keep them infused, keep them on task but then you actually probably the downfall was that you weren't experienced at the time so the practice that you essentially put on was probably meeting some of the players needs but ultimately wasn't affecting the others and you know that happens then and you get a few behaviour problems and people become disengaged and you move quickly to a game, but then you realize, well, the game's probably not as beneficial for them because there's probably too many players on the pitch. It's not got a small-sided nature to it. Probably ain't got some clear rules and some clear expectations and boundaries, and we're probably not focused on some coaching. So I think it was probably one of those where I would class it as firefighting if you like. So you'd always be dealing with a challenge or a problem and you soon learn. And then ultimately I think, you know, through coaching education and through development events and seeing those in my early sort of like formative years of coaching from 17 right through to 20. You learn fast, you adapt fast and you become really agile if you like in terms of understanding sort of like things that are working really well and then learning quickly that actually I need a plan B and a plan C here.
[Louise]
I guess it's almost like building a little toolbox, isn't it, Of kind of the things that you need each time something comes up. You're like, right, okay, I need that for that time. And then something changes again, same again. Yeah.
[Chris]
I love that analogy, Louise. I think toolbox is really important for coaches listening in. You know, what, what can you put in your toolbox? Is that going to help you? So, you know, what, what range of coach behaviours do you have? You know, are you really strong at questioning? Are you really strong in front of speaking to the full group? Are you good at observation? Are you good at feedback? You know, in your toolbox, what's your practice design like? Are you working up the steps? Are you doing some scaffolding-based practices? Are you, you know, are you doing some whole pot hall work? So whatever you can put in your toolbox to then think about, well, actually the group in front of me, what types of behaviours do I need? What practice design do I need to meet the needs and wants and motivations of the players that I've got in front of me? So yeah, I really like that idea.
[Louise]
What do you enjoy most about coaching?
[Chris]
I think because I've worked in quite a number of different areas of the game. So I've worked in the male game, female game, worked in the disability game. You know, ultimately, I've probably worked across a number of different sort of like domains, if you like, and really enjoyed one, working with people, two, trying to help people and then ultimately trying to develop myself as a person and as a coach in those environments. So I think it's been about people for me, just trying to put your best foot forward and We all think it's about improving the technical and tactical development of players, but ultimately it's not. It's about how do we develop as people, how do we connect person first, player second, how do we get to a point where we're really understanding people and understanding some of the challenges that they're facing, how we can help them. So I look back on fondly in all those different domains, the coaches I've worked with over the period of time. And, you know, as I start working to my 40s now, I've got a good 20, 22 years worth of experience of working in schools and grassroots, the international game, as well as being in a position where I've been privileged to work across the women's Super League and in the male non-league as well.
[Jamie]
You had quite a lot of experiences there Chris, do you want to give us a little bit of an insight into that journey from you first starting out to the role you've got today?
[Chris]
I think it's been a bit of an eclectic mix really Jamie in terms of where it all started. So as I mentioned, junior team managers award, 17, jumped on a level two straight away, got myself into a position where I started doing the Saturday morning school, started doing a bit of grassroots evening with a local club over in Horsforth where I was brought up in Leeds. I then probably got connected really well with some good role models at the County FA, so some people that have really sort of like stood with me, have been with me throughout this sort of like coaching journey and probably still people that you know I respect and hugely have a lot of admiration for in terms of the care they gave me and the support they gave me in the early stages. Julie Chipchase being one of those that I had the privilege of working with her, an absolute legend for coach education and development in the north. And a person that I worked with as I progressed through into Leeds United Ladies. And, you know, sadly we lost her and we lost that unbelievable passion and development for the game and people that she had. And I had 10 wonderful years working at Leeds United Ladies and four of those with her. So, you know, we had two FA Cup finals. We had a Premier League Cup Final, never got to beat Arsenal in any of those three games, but we did really well, but it was a great period of time. I worked in university football for 16 seasons with the women's game and the men's game there at Leeds Met. I had the privilege of having England internationals Lucy Bronze, Gemma Bonner, Jade Moore with us at the University for a significant period of time and you know, pleasure to see them in their formative years of development. I had a spell working with Leeds United Academy So I had an opportunity to go there and I ended up doing some speed agility and quickness work actually with the academy players, which then laterally built into doing some stuff with the first team back in the early 2000s, which was excellent. I then progressed on to do some work with Great Britain. So I took the Great Britain University squad to Serbia for the World University Futsal Championships with a great gentleman named Paul Tassel. We had a fantastic preparation for that and then a 10-day trip to the World Championships where we were playing Brazil, Portugal, Russia and the whole Serbia at the time. And then I also did England universities, male and female squads, so I had a fantastic time working with some FA colleagues that we still have now. Tom Curtis, who works with our national squads in the men's game, he was at Loughborough at the time. I worked at the University with Graham Potter for three or four seasons as well before he moved to Sweden. Again, I look back on those to help shape me. I Spent a little bit of time in non-league, so I did a couple of seasons in non-league, both with the university and then with some local clubs to me. And then ultimately, after working with the likes of Julie Chipchase and Rick Possmore at Leeds United, I then went and managed that club for a period of a couple of seasons. Really enjoyed that, working with some excellent players at the time. We had Millie Bright on loan from Doncaster Bells, who's gone on to have a really good career. And, you know, ultimately, again, you know, looking back at those formative years for those players and seeing where they're at now is, you know, it's absolute credit to them as people in terms of where they've got to as well. So it was nice to see them in their early years. And then ultimately, 2013, I moved to the FA, continued with a bit of part-time coaching at university, and 10 years later, 11 years later, we're into a position where I'm full-time as a coach developer and love working across many different aspects of the game and trying to help people. So yeah, a bit of an eclectic mix really, Jamie.
[Louise]
I think that all that kind of experience that you've got from all those different people. I guess it'd be really interesting to talk to your younger self just before you were about to start going into coaching. If you think about that, what advice would you give yourself back then just as you're about to start?
[Chris]
Yeah, I think the first thing is one, be really open to learning. So I think you've got to be open, I think you've got to be transparent with yourself, I think you've got to be realise that you're going to make mistakes. I know I made mistakes but probably you try and hide them in the early days, you think well I'll tell you what I can't show weakness here but ultimately you are going to make mistakes, things are not going to go right, you're not going to get things 100% right all the time. And it's really important for you to reflect on that, you know, to reflect in your sessions, to reflect after your sessions, to reflect before your sessions to think, right, well, actually I did this last time, what worked, what didn't, what could be even better if. And then ultimately, I think it's a real opportunity for you to, you know, connect with as many different people as you can. So again, I look back in all my different experiences and different sort of like domains that I worked in. And, you know, I can probably say that my toolbox, if you like, going back to what you mentioned, Louise, is probably full of some little tips and some ideas that I've picked up from people along the way, and then you start to shape them and make them work for yourself. So yeah, I'd say be open, transparent, try and get to as many learning opportunities you can, network, connect with people, go out and observe people. It's difficult these days because you know you've got to get out and you've got to spend time and your own money getting to these places but I look back at that and I think it was a massive, massive point for me before I went to Leeds Metropolitan University both as a, you know, in the end as a staff member there, but I was a student there doing an undergraduate, a master's degree and then a teaching qualification there as well. So I spent a lot of my time both at the uni, developed myself from an education point of view, as well as working there for 10 years prior to this role. And I can remember now spending a lot of time just going out, seeing people, getting to sessions, working with people, building these relationships. And As I say, it's massively important, I think, that in the early stages of your development.
[Jamie]
You've worked with some real influential individuals, Chris. What's kind of the best piece of advice that maybe you've got from one of them during your career so far?
[Chris]
I think some of the big things is around, sort of like, personal qualities, human qualities. I think what you've got to understand is one, know yourself, but then two, how do you start to work with other people? How do you understand them as people? How do you start to understand their needs, wants, motivations? How do you start to understand them on a day-to-day, person-specific, you know, everybody's got a story and it's important for us to understand their stories for us to help them, because if you don't understand who's in front of you, you're gonna really struggle then to think about, well, what to coach and how to coach it. So it's got to start to think about the who is the person first and and those are some of the big messages that I think sometimes you can focus too much on the football side of things but the human side of things and the person first and being in a position where we take time to show some care and some compassion and some authenticity at times to really understand people's individual motivations. How do we connect to them as an individual? How can we help connect them as individuals, as players to the team. You know, these are some of these big messages that, you know, are massive for me in terms of building relationships with players, but are things that, like you've alluded to there, Jamie, that I've seen others doing, and some things that have probably been imprinted in me.
[Louise]
And would you say that that's the best way to make a positive impact on a player's journey or have you got any other tips?
[Chris]
Yeah, so I think probably from my point of view it's really important to understand players both on the pitch and off the pitch. So, you know, we'll probably have an hour with them in the week, the training, and then we have a game day and we've got to serve a lot of players' needs, wants. Where are they at in the learning? What do I need to work on? What are we working on in training? How can we connect them into individual development plans if we're working with them for example but ultimately it's those really important bits around. I always remember a great example, a player was constantly late to training in an environment that I was working in and I was working with some other coaches at the time and I'm not really sure we can have this player at training. Myself and another coach sat down with him after two or three sessions and we were finding that he was having to get two buses to train and then walk the last little bit and the buses were late. So you know what you've got to understand is these types of things. We had a player who got themselves into a situation where they were tired in training but they'd not got themselves to a point where they hadn't had their main meal yet, they were eating later. So they were tired at training, long day at school. You've got some where you see sort of like relationship challenges so what does it look like at school in terms of the friendship group? Some of them are training and that's broke down in the last couple of weeks. And what can we do to try and help resolve that and support that? So I think this on and off the pitch starting point is really important in terms of building relationships. But then, As I sort of like alluded to, I think it's important to understand your environment that you're working in. Are players coming to you for fun? Are they coming for you for development? Are they coming for you for winning? So whatever it looks like, from a winning perspective, you might be in a development program where it's 15, 16, 17 years of age, yes we're still developing them and I'm working in academy football but you know that this winning versus development there's a need to win games. You know then we're into a position where I'm working in grassroots and it's development so I'm working with me under sevens you know what does it look like well they want to come for fun they want to come for enjoyment and you know, ultimately we're developing them. So I think there's a real trade off to understand your environment, who you're working with, you know, what does that look like in terms of your culture and ethos and your values in terms of how you put that across to the group and you know what some of the boundaries and expectations if you like in terms of myself and the playing group in terms of you know what we'll do to try and build effective relationships.
[Jamie]
Thinking back to something that you said earlier in terms of like the first coaching experience that you had and you mentioned it was like 40 or 50 players in the coaching school, how do you even go about being able to start building relationships with that many people in kind of a short time frame really because like you say you're delivering this session but you actually don't know anything about them?
[Chris]
Yeah so I think first and foremost it starts with sort of like those human qualities if you like of connecting and caring so do I know the names, you know what they had for breakfast that morning, What was the day like, what was the week being like at school when I had them on that Saturday morning? What are some of the things that interest them? What are some things that they like? I always think it's really important to start with school environments as well. So if they like certain subjects at school, the more likely they're going to like to explore them within your training session. So if a good example would be, I always think about maths for example. So if somebody's really good at doing those tricky equations and those calculations and those, you know, those maths challenges when they get quite difficult, then what they probably do is that they really like thinking, don't they? They like to articulate something, think about it, try and sort of like work out a solution. So actually, they're probably going to quite like things around opportunities for us to experiment on the grass and provide them some ownership and for us to probably set some challenges if you like. So I think it's important to connect that type of thing around on and off pitch and what it looks like. But it's difficult because you get names wrong. You get, you know, especially when you're working with that big group. I remember that, you know, morning Charlie, actually it's not Charlie, it begins with a C, but we've got another child here and you've got that name mixed up. And you learn these things, but then you get better at it. And I always think, I go back to my experiences, why do I remember the coaches that I do because they probably took care, took time, great environment, practices were good. You wanted to go back, you know, and I still look back at those people now and I'm still in touch with those people that ultimately were running that club when I'm six, seven, eight, nine, ten years of age. And you know that something's been really strong for you in terms of why you've liked something because what is that 32, 33 years later you're still in touch with those people and and that's because of probably the sense of belonging and the feeling that they gave you then.
[Louise]
If you were to try and identify what a good relationship looks like, how would you describe it?
[Chris]
I think there's got to be transparency, there's got to be trust, there's got to be a real authenticity about yourself in terms of, you know, actually this is what you get from me, I'm definitely going to sort of like try and exhibit these behaviours to you. I'm going to try to take understand around what your motivations are, what your aspirations are. I think there's a real good opportunity to think about how do you motivate people as well. So if I think about relationships it's not just going to be about you know ultimately that day-to-day piece, it's going to be around that piece around well actually do we really understand the full picture, the holistic understanding of that player? So I know that if I'm gonna build on relationships with players, I know some players that would love choice, that would want me to acknowledge their perspectives and feelings, that would want me to buy them into the rationale of the session, that would want me to get them to co-lead and to ultimately have some ownership about what they do. They want some accountability. They don't want me to be in a position from a relationship point of view where it's sort like I'll do A, you'll do B, copy, repeat. It's a bit like, well, actually, no, let's understand them. They want a bit of this. These want a bit of this. Some want telling, some want showing, some want the opportunity to find out. So ultimately it's about, I think, really understanding the person, but transparency, authenticity, and then have a range of strategies and toolbox ideas, if you like, to say, well, actually what works for this person is not gonna work for this person. And that's huge. You also will get, I always think back to those grassroots days, you'll get people coming to and you build a relationship with the grassroots. Some want to come to play and develop, some want to come to play with their friends, Some want to come because they're in a situation where, you know, the friend's going but they're a bit unsure about it, but they're going to give it a go. Some are there because ultimately there's a bit of parental pressure for them to go and they go and they don't really get it. Some lack confidence, they're fine by themselves, but they struggle in terms of groups, so you've got to work through that. But then I think back now to some of my other areas that I worked in, some other domains. And I think to myself, well, these came here because I was working in this, they wanted to be as part of a project, they wanted to develop a real understanding of a strong culture within our team. They wanted to win games. They wanted to be successful. There was an ethos around winning and culture and identity and really trying to develop, you know, players for international football as well. So it's, you know, you've got to understand your domain, you've got to understand your context, but you've got to also understand the rationale in relationships, if you like, for why people are doing what they're doing, and essentially why they're at your session, and why they want to come to you. That's another thing.
[Jamie]
Coaches, especially like grassroots coaches, might have quite little time, so they might, you know, just be turning up to train, and just get something on, and maybe not delve too much into the side relationships because it does take time to do this it's not something that's going to happen in one session and you just know everybody and everyone there but why is it so important to try and invest some time in building good relationships with players?
[Chris]
I think probably what you've got to think sometimes is players, some will need security, some will need that sense of psychological safety if you like. Some will need you to be caring and compassionate, some will need you to be in a position where actually they'll like to be told, you know, they'll like to be helped along the journey a little bit with some guidance and some information. But then I also think it's important, if you think about from a football context, I always use this analogy, Jamie, in terms of we've got to understand players' start points and challenge points, not just from a football perspective in the technical and tactical corner, if we think about the FA's four corner model, but we've got to also think about this from a psychological and social point of view, where's their start point and challenge point? So if we think about relationships, you know, where's the start point and challenge point? So if I do loads of group work and I do loads of social work where we get them to communicate, collaborate, cooperate with one another, But if they're struggling in that area, I need to know where their start point and challenge point is, because there's no point in putting them into full group work, problem solving work here. And they're really struggling to communicate and share ideas, but we've got to help them a little bit. So we might say, right, well, actually, are you okay sharing ideas to a group as an individual, then how do you cooperate as a pair? And then what do you like in terms of six months down the line where you might start to build this confidence to start sharing ideas within a group and communicating and collaborating that way? So I think this idea of start point and challenge point is really important. I also think it's really important for us to think about what that looks like from a player's confidence and esteem perspective. So, confidence and esteem are different. So, esteem is probably the value in life that you place on yourself in terms of how comfortable you are in terms of the environment. Confidence would be the ability to perform a physical or a mental task. So confidence, for example, I might be really high confidence in terms of, I'll tell you what, I can do this task, it's not a problem, I can perform this action or I can perform this mental task really well. But actually I might have low self-esteem because I might struggle in terms of I'm okay by myself I can handle things but you put me in a bit of a group here and I'm I'm struggling a little bit so we've got to understand this this concept of in my mind in terms of start point and challenge point I think it's really important It's like within the football analogy around practice design. Some players from a start point and challenge point around practices will like sessions that are simple, easy, quite slow in tempo. But the other end of the start point and challenge point, Some will like it where it's fast, it's challenging, it's specific, it's hard. But if I gave everybody that start point and challenge point right at the top, they're going to struggle. So I've got to know about differentiation as a coach from a relationship point of view. How do I manage difference to allow every player and every person, because they're all gonna be a person first, access to my session. So I've got to differentiate, I've got to find some top tips to maybe do some parallel activities or ultimately differentiate the task according to the needs and wants of my players. So Relationships for me is important around some of the fundamentals we've talked about earlier, but if we start to think about this concept of start point and challenge point, I think that's huge really in terms of one of our sort of like strategies if you like that we could use to help relationship building as well.
[Jamie]
Yeah, really important tip to take away for everyone because ultimately like having a good relationship with players, knowing all about them, it can positively impact their development can't it?
[Chris]
Yeah so ultimately what I see is if I put practices on for certain groups of players that are struggling with quite a hard specific fast challenge, well ultimately they're going to probably fall out your session. They're gonna probably struggle with it because it's too hard and they might then come out, not be focused, not learning, not getting an opportunity to practice things. And then you're in a situation where you've got to try and hook them back in. But if we don't differentiate the practice, they're probably gonna still continue to drop out. And then what you've got is behavioural problems, because then they're going to get bored, switch off, probably don't get you to do things that you want to do. That's important, I think. I always class it as stages of agitation. So actually, if I'm delivering a practice and I've put something on that's too hard, I'll see these stages of agitation where it's too hard for them. They're not getting success. They're falling out with the friends. You can see pressure building. Well, they're stages of agitation. And what you've got to really remember is before the dropout or we get this behavioural challenge at the top, these little stages that you spot, that's your moment as a coach to drop in and go, right, we'll find a solution for you. And it might be that we were doing parallel activities and one pitch is a bit easier, next middle sort of like deals with our copers. And this pitch at the end is for the strivers. But if we put everybody into a hard task where the strivers are, well, only the strivers are gonna probably thrive. So we've got to think about the other, the people who are working out to keep up and the ones who are coping. And that's the essence of differentiation. And that's the bit about when I first started in those coaching schools, Jamie, with 40, 50 people, you didn't spot that, you had a plan and you stuck to it. Now, with time and with development, you see these things and that's where your trigger has gone, right, I've made probably a wrong decision here that's not helping the player. How do I then solve that and help that? And the players might give you the answer and go, well, actually, I prefer this practice here, Chris, because ultimately this is where I probably can get some success. And if you get four out of five successful on this practice, you can move back up to this one. So it's this type of approach that, you know, relationships is on and off the pitch, but ultimately it's about knowing the person and start point, challenge point is something that was taught to me in my early 20s and probably didn't understand at the time, if I'm honest. But now I feel like I've got a point where I can go, actually, yeah, I can see what little Sally here and Suneeta and Charlie and that working with these players and it's not working for them. So I've got to help this because otherwise I'm setting them up to fail and they're not going to enjoy the session while they're there.
[Louise]
If we were to kind of think of it in like a simple way, perhaps someone who's listening is kind of starting off on all this stuff and you wanted to give them like the bullet points of things that they need to know in order to build a relationship with their players, What would you list them as then?
[Chris]
Well, first thing, I think you've got to invest time. So that's really important. And that's not going to be that you've got to spend an hour with them because then you've got 20 other children running around or players in your session. It takes time. So it's little conversations. It's little opportunities where you walk into the pitch or you know, somebody's got to train in early or you've got an opportunity where you know the parents stuck in traffic and you know there's still a training and time's important and I think sometimes something that somebody said to me once was that don't invest too late in relationships when you need people because it won't work. Relationships need to start from the very first moment and you've got to build that trust, authenticity, rapport, relationship with them because the time when you actually need that relationship to be strong and you need it for it's that you're going through a tricky situation as a challenging situation don't try and invest in that moment when the problem's hit because ultimately it's not going to be as authentic and it's not going to be as clear as it is, and as transparent as it can be, it's probably going to fail and you're probably not going to help as much in that situation. You're showing some care, but ultimately invest in the relationships right from the start. And as you go through time, and if going gets tough, you've spent a lot of time building that. So the big one for me would be time. The second one would be do I really understand about, you know, the why of, especially if you think about grassroots, why do they come to your session? Why? That's a top tip for me, It's huge. And some people say they come for fun. Well, fun means different things to different people. And that's a big one for me. People say, I want to make sessions fun. Well, actually, how do you know what fun is like for some people? Because fun for Jamie might be, you know, doing certain something. And actually for me, it's, well, actually I love to do games, but Jamie likes to do something as an individual. So fun's different, so I always worry a little bit sometimes when they say fun, I understand it don't get me wrong, make sessions fun, make them engaged, make them enjoyable but what does fun mean to people? So I think those three ones for me would be really important at the minute So if you're talking about relationships, what can I do? I'd say time invest Why do the come to you training sessions, especially in grassroots, You know as you get into more development and probably stretching into your academy football etc you get a reason why, especially in the 18s, 21s because you want to be a professional footballer or if you're working in non-league there's a reason why they're coming to you. But you've still got to figure out and understand why and keep on that. And then ultimately, you know, you get yourselves into a situation where you, you start to get a real clear picture of the player and the person before the play, that's, that's important.
[Louise]
Do you have any tips on how you kind of build relationships with people and how you like is there an approach that you take that works for you each time?
[Chris]
The one thing that I think I've learned I've got better at and I probably wasn't there in the early years of my coaching was the one that I probably would do would be to say do I really get myself into a position where I fully understand what it's like for them on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis. So if I think to going back to great example so I go back to some of my women's football experiences working at the top end of the game, you know, actually, do I really start to stand back and go, right, if they're at university or in their full-time work, what are some of the challenges of that, that link into football? Well, there's probably, we're gonna have some study pressure times out there. There's going to be times where there's exams or there's coursework times. I've got to know that. Work-wise, how's that going? Are they enjoying it? Is there a lot of pressures? Is there a lot of added time? So that might understand why they're not as fully concentrated at times, or they're late, or there's a few things going on. There'll also be opportunities where I think it's about sitting them down with them in an environment that's probably quite neutral. So, I remember this brilliantly. So, I worked at the university and I worked with some fantastic coaches across a number of sports for 10 years. There was an outstanding rugby league coach that had linked in with League of Rhinos, there was a gentleman who worked with Wales Rugby Union who was in charge of the men's rugby union process. We had a coach who was working with the international programme with Netball. And we had a little, we had a series of tables in a cafe in the reception. And what it was, was like, it became the hub. You'd see there, coaches having little player meetings, get a little coffee, and you'd sat in this little neutral environment and the tables were all spread apart and you were able to connect to people and you're able to listen to understand and you were able to help them through with these certain things. And that was huge for me. Like I remember those, if I think about some of those moments where it was a real opportunity to listen to your players, to understand them, to spend some time with them, and you got a really informed picture that helped you. So I look back on some of those players that I was working with at the time that were with me at the university, but it was extra little touch points that you could sit down with them. Some might have had an injury. So where are they at with that? How are they dealing with it? Some were going through a physiotherapy program. So I was going with them to physiotherapy. I was spending time with them going, right, well, actually, I want to know what you're going through here, where you're at, how can I help you, what stage are you at, getting an informed picture? Some were in a position where the university pressures were getting really strong in that third and final year, right, how can I help you? Can I speak to your lecturers? Where's the support? Do we need to dial down your training? It's important that these little pictures, like, You've got to think about those moments, about how we can help the person first and then ultimately that, I think if you connect that way, it will help them as a player as well.
[Jamie]
Do you have any advice to help build relationships with players on training and also match day? Or does it not kind of differ between the approach that maybe that you use?
[Chris]
Yeah, no, I'd definitely say there is a difference. Training, I think sometimes, depending on your context, so think about grassroots, it's a nice release, isn't it? So they get to train, and they've been at school all day, probably, in some respect, some of them had the teeth, run them down, got to training. Some might have to have it afterwards. But they get there and it's a bit of a release. It's an opportunity for them to have ball rolling time. It's an opportunity for them to do loads of things and get a high frequency of time on task, to connect with their mates. But ultimately, It's an extra thing in their lives, isn't it? They come to you because they want to ultimately sort of like be a part of something. And they want to enjoy it. So ultimately I think we've got to understand that. So that's probably an important part of the relationship about, well actually they come into your session, but it's an extra choice for them. It's a choice about whether they come. In some respects, unless there's a bit of parental pressure where they're forcing them, because they want them to go and they're not really feeling it. They might like it in a few months' time, but we all see examples of that. But then match day we've got to start to think around well actually how can I help them on a match day around relationships? So I always think about I'll provide my players some individual challenges and some team challenges but they've got to be realistic, they've got to be accountable to that player, they've got to be related to what they're doing. They've also, if you're giving them a challenge on match day, you've got to have worked on that in your previous blocks of training, because you can't just throw a challenge out to them and they've not had time to practice it in training. So relationship for me is part of that one as well. So if I give somebody a match day challenge, an individual learning challenge, an individual development plan, if you like, what we talk about in academy football and those environments. They've got to have made some progress towards that in recent weeks. And you've got to be helping with them on that because when they get to training, the relationship bit will break down if you give them something that they don't understand, they don't have clarity over. Ultimately, they need repetition to work on that, and they need transfer to be able to put that into the game. So relationships with all the key fundamentals that we've talked about, care, compassion, how do people deal with match day struggles versus training struggles? Players will react differently in training to match day. Some will thrive, some won't. You know, how can we connect to try and figure out some of those situations? How can we be in a position to really recognize and understand those moments? That's important. Your visual triggers, how do you recognize and understand these differences, Jamie, between training and match day and how people sort of like react and how you can build relationship and trust and empathize with them. Empathy's huge. So if we don't understand that players might be going through little challenges, both in terms of relationships from my perspective, working with them, but relationship between teammates, Empathy is really important to understand it and it might, you might not get the answer first time, it might take you, going back to my point before, if the relationships between you and your player is not there and you just need it, you want to try and go jump to that and get a solution fast, but you've not spent time and invested in the relationship That bit's gonna be tricky So, you know that it might take an hour two sessions three sessions before you get a fully informed picture of what's bothering people but invest in people first and take time. Don't go for relationship pieces and try and build them instantly when you need it because ultimately I don't think it works.
[Jamie]
You kind of mentioned a few skills there in terms of empathy, care and compassion. What do you think are the important skills that coaches need to have to be able to foster good relationships and build good rapport with players?
[Chris]
Yeah, so I think ultimately for me, and you've probably named a few there really, Jamie, in terms of care, compassion, empathy. So I always think a good relationship is built on honesty, trust, but it's ultimately that you're able to put yourselves in the player's shoes and understand what it's... Try and get yourself to a position where you understand about their thinking. So the thinking about thinking piece. So I'm observing this child in my grassroots session and they're struggling with X. Well actually, I can think about this and I can start to envisage about the problem where they're going. But if I don't put myself into their shoes and start to view it from their eyes or start to understand about what they're seeing, feeling on a human perspective, I'm probably second guessing in this thinking piece and I probably got to go, well, actually I need to spend some time to understand that person, get in their shoes and understand it through their eyes. What does it look through like in their lens? What does it look like through their world? Because ultimately that's the bit because you need to understand it. You need to understand it.
[Louise]
Would you say that it's beneficial for coaches to get to know the players parents and carers to help them build relationships with their team?
[Chris]
Yeah, so I think when I first started, here's a good example, I was probably quite naive, nervous with that. So they'd come, they'd drop them off, and then they'd play in a session, and they might go and come back to pick them up. But then as time has gone on in my development journey, parents are fundamentally in the process for me. Because ultimately, you've got to try and ultimately, I think, with the programmes, if you think about grassroots football, why have they chosen your club? So actually, the parents' bit's important to say, right, well, actually, what's the ethos, the values of the club? What's the philosophy? What's their view around playing time, minutes time, but if we don't communicate some of these things to our parents they're gonna be in the dark about it, they're gonna be blind to it. I think it's crucially and fundamentally important that we engage parents in this process because ultimately, if I'm coaching in grassroots I might have them for an hour a week and then a game on a Sunday where I'm working with them. But the parents in care, you know, most cases will look after them. It might be with grandparents, it might be with carers. It's the same process. They were with them for all of that week. I've gone for an hour and then a match day. So actually some little things that I can understand and get that relationship trust with parents is important. I also think it's really important to communicate why you're doing what you're doing with your players. So actually we're working on these for three weeks here. Because why? Because actually it takes a while to learn something. We can't just do one session and move on. So we'll work on this in the training and we'll work on this in the game day and we'll work on this for three, four weeks. Why? Because learning needs repetition, it needs a high frequency, and it needs an opportunity to transfer stuff. So ultimately, it's important for us to articulate that with parents, because if we don't, they might wonder why, well, actually, I don't understand why you're working on defending, and you're working on this little aspect here when actually we're struggling to score goals. Well, we can't solve everything. We can't sort of like have a problem on a Sunday and then on Tuesday night, we're gonna solve shooting in one session. You know, we're not gonna solve defending in one session. So we've gotta understand that in our own heads as a coach, articulate that to parents, articulate that to players. So then we've got clarity and we know why we're doing what we're doing. Same thing with minutes time and game time. So if we want to be in a club where our players get equal playing time, so we've got nine players in our team, we're playing four periods of 10 minutes but we want to try and work towards where every player gets equal playing time. Well the parents are going to know that because they want to know why actually the first 10 minutes the players done really well on the pitch but then they sat on the bench for the next 10 minutes or they're playing a little small sided game at the side and they're waiting to come on. But if they don't know that, they're going to wonder what's going on. So we've got to articulate values, beliefs, ethos, and I think it's really important to communicate that side of things with parents. So I go back to my academy football examples. That was a really strong example where the player would come in for their review, six-week reviews, termly reviews, half-term reviews. Parents are in. Great chance to articulate. But then also, when I'm going to games in academy football, players are getting changed, I'm out on the pitch setting up, here's a good chance to build a relationship with a couple of parents. Get amongst them, have a little chat with them, you know, understand stuff through their eyes, what are they seeing. Also, then I think that helps the coaches regulation of thoughts is there some things that you're not seeing was there a bias in your thinking there was a perspective that you weren't seeing was a bit of a blind spot it's really important I think to start to see things through multiple, especially in relationships, let's link this back to relationships. It's really important to view things through different people's perspectives because actually you get more of a rounded picture. So relationships sometimes isn't two way. The relationship might be informed by a significant other or somebody else, a carer or a parent or a guardian. So actually to get these different perspectives gives you a real fully regulated thought, I think, in terms of actually informing me, informing others around the process of how we're working in these little situations. Because sometimes you won't spot everything. It's hard, especially if you're a coach in grassroots and you're listening on this one tonight and I've got, I'm working under 14s and I've got a squad of 18. I can't ultimately sort of like be fully abreast of everything with those 18 players, but actually if I see through things and listen to other perspectives, it makes me rounded. I'll give you a great example. This is about important about knowing the individual. I was involved in an academy program a few years ago. I worked in a variety of professional clubs working in academy football. There was a parent who was played for that club, probably 400 appearances, and the son was in the academy program. And he wasn't enjoying it for six months. He wasn't enjoying it for six months. And we were starting to understand why, what's going on, you're struggling a little bit here, how can we help you, what's going on? Bit of that care, compassion, authenticity that we talked about. Trust, build it. We built that relationship. We got this feedback and we started to understand why. He wanted to go and play rugby. His friends all did rugby and football wasn't for him. I think there was a bit of an opportunity there where he started to think, well, he's been in the football programme and he was loving the football. His dad was an inspirational role model, but lifestyle, friendship groups, social groups, he wanted to go down the rugby path. And now that person's playing a very, very strong, high level in terms of rugby. And they've gone into that, came out of football and gone into that, but that's ultimately about understanding the player and the relationships point of view as well and starting to view things through multiple eyes. And I always remember that one. It's a real one that sticks in my mind quite strongly in terms of was enjoying football, was in there three, four years, struggled for about six months, quite an influential age, he's 13, 14, and then ultimately went into rugby, sailed, doing absolutely brilliant in the international now, and you know, I think it's, that was great because it was a great example of parent, player, coach, what's right for the child, what's right for the child, and where they're at now, that was right for the child. That's come out of football, yes had unbelievable talent, could have done really well, but actually look at where that person is thriving, loving the environment. So yeah, good one for me to remember that.
[Louise]
Yeah, really interesting and important things to think about, I guess. One of the other things that I guess parents are really, it's really important to engage with them about is kind of additional needs. Do you have any kind of useful tips on how to build relationships with players that do have additional needs?
[Chris]
Yeah, so I think first and foremost that the same fundamentals apply. So, why did you come to my sessions, time to get to know them, care, compassion, transparency, trust, that's huge. So they're your person first things, they never change depending on the domain, the context who you're working with. What is important though Louise, it's a great question, is to try and understand the disability. Take time to understand the disability, engage with parents, what works, what doesn't, what some of the, if you're working with people who are partially deaf or deaf for example, how best to communicate, what's some of the strategies and some of the models of the ways that you do at home, what does it do in their school-based environment, how can I start to understand and learn that? You know we've got a fantastic set of resources at the FAA at the minute that have been shared around understanding different types of disabilities. You know actually it also aligns to some of the top tips around practice design as well so how can I use the STEP principle, size, task, equipment, people, how can I start to use those to understand well actually I'm working with this context with this group and they've got some specific needs around ADHD for example? Well actually I've got some toolbox ideas here that can help. So for me it's the fundamental anyway, the relationship is the same but it's actually about understanding the disability and seeking information from a variety of people, parents, school, top tips that the FAS team have provided us in recent months around actually being able to articulate and be clear in terms of how you want to communicate. I worked at a school for the deaf, I worked there for a year, unbelievable experience and probably what I was able to do was start to use listening to understand around what was working in that environment when I was on there on placement and I was delivering quite a lot of the PE sessions. I was starting to understand the different people in front of me. So the person first approach, you know, some of you could be in a position where lip reading was strong, some was where you were in a position where it was actually some of the movements, triggers, arm signals if you like, demonstrations, absolutely key. So it's about understanding, one, the relationship part for the first, second the disability and then third providing yourselves with some top tips if you like and some ideas to ultimately help inform that context that you're working in.
[Jamie]
Now I'm worried that we've kept you for quite a while Chris, there's a couple of questions and it's probably quite harsh to get you to answer these really quickly because it's probably not easy to deal with but maybe a couple of challenges that coaches face is you know helping players connect and build relationships with the rest of the team as well as obviously with themselves. Do you have any quick advice to help coaches do that at all?
[Chris]
Yeah, so first and foremost if you think about individuals within a team, so my first thought would be what's the individual characteristics like of that player that you're working with? So actually do they need to be in a situation where they need to be aligned with some people within the teams for some areas of development. So, for example, I sometimes quite like if somebody's not gone through the growth spurt yet and somebody has gone through the growth spurt, I like actually putting a smaller player at that time against a larger player, because actually the larger player has got to work on the balance to try and nick the balls off and try and win the ball back and keep possession. But the player who's probably not gone through the growth spurt yet at the minute is quite small. They've got to use probably all those little tricks if you like around arms, body, using their low centre of gravity, being agile to ultimately go into those duels. So that's important, I think, sometimes in terms of, from a football lens, technical lens. I also then think it's really important sometimes about if you've got somebody who's quite confident, but struggles in terms of speaking in front of a group, what you could do is start pairing it up with somebody who's really comfortable in speaking in groups and you get them to work together on a few things because then actually the person who's struggling a little bit working in groups and the person who's thriving in the group they can learn off so ultimately actually yeah I tell you what it's paired together here because I've thanks very much you've helped me I've learned through examples and learned by doing and being with you. So sometimes pairing people where there's a development task, somebody who's maybe thriving at that time versus somebody who's struggling to keep up. Sometimes it's important to bring them together if the relationship's right and there's a bit of trust there to ultimately bring to a positive solution and help people in the journey. So I think it's about connecting the individuals to the team, thinking about individual characteristics, but ultimately trying to help that team culture piece.
[Jamie]
And the other one that we kind of wanted to throw at you was obviously every player is different and coaches may find it difficult to actually build relationships with absolutely everyone. So do you have any advice to help coaches kind of overcome maybe a bit of a challenge, if a player's a little bit challenging perhaps, like how they can actually start to build a relationship and rapport with those individuals?
[Chris]
Yeah so I think it goes back to that concept about stages of agitation there's a reason why they are behaving in the way that they are so what you've got to do is understand why they're behaving in the way that they are and that takes an investigation a bit of time to actually bring yourself out of the situation and try and understand it. I also think it's sometimes Jamie a nice one where once is a one-off, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern. So actually if you've seen stuff more than three times where it's a pattern of regular behaviour, there's obviously something that's causing that and it's important for us to understand why and help that and try and provide some solutions and or try and work through a problem. If it's a one-off, let's just, I've noted it, I've seen it, twice is a coincidence, alright it's happened again, third time, right, it's a pattern now, I might need to think about it. And that's also, don't just look at that from a negative lens, think about that as a positive, I'll flip that as well, so if something's thriving, once is a one-off, twice a coincidence, three times a pattern. If you see somebody who's working really well with a teammate from building relationships point of view and they're showing some good empathy when somebody's going through a difficult time on the pitch and they might have just missed a tackle. If you see that from that player exhibiting that quality three times or more, it's a real good trait that that player has got in terms of empathising with players and providing that security. So I also think it's about looking at it through both ways in terms of celebrating some real successful things you see, versus also going actually this could be a pattern where I need to try and help this player with a solution.
[Jamie]
Yeah, a really good framework to keep in mind definitely.
[Louise]
So looking back over everything that we've discussed, which is lots we've kind of covered so much there, can you summarise the key top tips for building relationships that you want coaches to take away from this episode?
[Chris]
First and foremost, really appreciate you having me on to discuss this because it's quite a broad, vast area. But for me, top tips would be spend time, understand the who, the person in front of you, have authenticity, be in a position where you connect with the person first and then the player second, care and compassion, and have a real level of humility about you in terms of, you know, how you work in those situations, provide empathy really. I think that's huge for me in terms of being a coach, working with players to try and help build their relationships.
[Louise]
Brilliant. And if we were to kind of flip that so that you could give a challenge to the listeners to get them kind of on the track for building better relationships or good relationships, what would you challenge them to have a go at to start them off?
[Chris]
Yeah, so A nice one I think is about the company football training, so ultimately they're at training, but here's one for you. In the week, try and find one thing out about the players that you're working with that you never knew. So it could be that they're like fishing, or it could be that they're like darts, or it could be like they're playing snooker, or it could be like they're reading books, or it could be that they're like going out on the bike, or it could be like they're playing snooker, or it could be like they're reading books, or it could be like going out on the bike, or it could be like they're going out for a run. What's one thing, try and find out in a week, might be 10 days, might be 14 days, what's one thing that you never knew about the player? And actually that might be something that informs you in terms of a relationship piece or a way in which you could work with them going forward. That would be something that I would probably say is a nice little tip. One thing that you've never known that you're going to try and find out.
[Louise]
Brilliant and I think that's a really good starting point isn't it, kind of just opening those doors to that. Brilliant, thank you.
[Jamie]
Right, well, we are coming up to the end of the show now, Chris, but it does mean we might just be able to squeeze in our Swift Session feature.
[Louise]
Yep, so you may remember this from last time you were on, but we'll give you 30 seconds and we're going to ask you to explain a session idea to us in those 30 seconds. Are you up for that?
[Chris]
Yeah I'll give it a go.
[Louise]
Okay once again when you hear the music start you can begin.
[Chris]
So simple arrival activity, five yard by five yard square, attacking a defender, attacker starts with the ball but after 30 seconds the person who's in possession of the ball is the winner of that game. So ultimately the defender will be working to try and win that ball, if the defender wins it the attacker is going to try and win it back. So who's in possession of the ball after 30 seconds? 5x5 square, two people, great little arrival activity.
[Jamie]
Absolutely, plenty of time to spare. We did have time to squeeze that in, that's a great idea. So yeah, Thanks for that Chris. Well, yeah, it's been fantastic speaking to you and we've had a really in-depth discussion and I'm sure we could have gone on for another hour or so really, because like you say, there's so much to unpack in this topic, but it's been fascinating listening to your experiences and your top tips as well. Hopefully you've enjoyed being back on CoachCast because we've really enjoyed talking to you about building relationships today.
[Chris]
Yeah, absolute pleasure, Louise and Jamie. You're doing a great job with this and it's an absolute privilege to spend an hour or so chatting with you this morning.
[Jamie]
Yeah, brilliant. Thank you very much. Right, well that's all we have time for today, but don't forget to check out the description for the transcription of this episode and for all the links to our platforms. There you'll be able to click through to the England Football Community, and this is where you can post your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast or simply to connect with loads of wonderful coaches.
[Louise]
Yep, we'd love to help you out with your coaching questions so please do check it out. We'll be back soon with another episode of Coachcast so if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode. From all of us at England Football Learning, thanks for listening.