Please Note: The transcript is automatically generated by Supertranslate.beta in case you come across any typos or misquotes during your reading.    

[Jamie]

Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. I'm Jamie and I'm here with Louise and today we're chatting with Paul Holder, an FA Youth Coach Developer, to hear about his journey so far and to talk about growth and maturation. Well, hi Paul, welcome back to the show.

[Paul]

Morning.

[Louise]

Really nice to have you back on again. It's been too long since you were last here.

[Paul]

Tell the truth.

[Louise]

That is the truth. For anybody who hasn't listened to the previous episode before, can you just give us a quick reminder of what you do in your role?

[Paul]

So I work in the professional game but also do work across grassroots as well. But mainly in the professional game and develop coaches basically. Try and help them to help the kids. That's the main frame.

[Jamie]

Love it. Well we're talking about trying to help coaches. As this is a coaching podcast, you know, we like to give coaches some good advice at the top of the show.

[Louise]

Yep, so we call this the arrival activity, kind of get you warmed up. We're going to give you 30 seconds and we're going to ask you to give us as many top coaching tips as you can in those 30 seconds. Are you up for the challenge?

[Paul]

Okay, I'm up for the challenge.

[Louise]

Okay, so there'll be some music in the background so when that starts you can begin.

[Paul]

Right, first of all, Make sure all the equipment that you got is at hand. Get the area size right. Don't worry about the numbers. If you're struggling, put on a game. The game will always get you out of trouble. If you need to step back and watch in a game, it's easy to do. Yeah. Don't ignore any of the kids. Make sure everybody's involved at some stage most of the time and get the ball rolling. Perfect. Look at that.

[Louise]

See, you were perfect at it.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it's like you've rehearsed that, Paul. Now, Paul, like we said, it has been a while since you last joined us in the studio I think it was actually back in March 2022 so a little while now but back then we didn't actually dive into your story so we kind of want to do that a little bit today if you don't mind and we always start by asking what was your first experience of football like?

[Paul]

I think the first thing is like I was coached by a maths teacher in a suit and he would put on these Wellingtons and pass the ball to me. And then he was also my maths teacher. He booted me out of maths, but he kept me in the football team. It was that one-to-one coaching that started me off. And it was like, it's ridiculous to think about it. A man in a suit, just taking his jacket off, sticking on a pair of wellies and kicking the ball to me and telling me how to pass it. Yeah that was the first serious one-to-one coaching I've got or personal coaching. Played games but that was, yeah, I remember that.

[Jamie]

Was you always into football at that point?

[Paul]

Oh yes yeah with my mates on the on the park any anywhere yeah so well I was brought up on a big council estate and there's nothing else to do you know there's bits of grass going to annoy the neighbours by booting balls in their garden and then having fun trying to get them back. Yeah, so that's what we used to do and play for the school and then district, county, all that sort of stuff, but football was everything.

[Louise]

Do you think that started your thinking about coaching? Was that where the seed was planted, do you think?

[Paul]

When I played football for the school, and he wasn't the schoolteacher that took the team, but helped me. So I thought, must be a link here somewhere. He's helping me get better at football, I'm getting better at football, my mates like it because I'm scoring lots of goals and everyone wins. So I saw the link between just a simple relationship between two people and dumping it into the game. See what I mean? I saw that quite early on. I said oh, practice works then. Do you know what I mean? That sort of thing.

[Louise]

And when was your first experience of coaching? Like how did you get to that point?

[Paul]

I used to coach when I was playing for my school. I used to coach the midfielders to... I was playing up front and I used to coach the midfielders and I didn't see it as coaching, I used to tell them where I wanted the ball and I said why don't you kick it with your inst... The proper part of your foot and you'll get it to me on time in the right place, you know what I mean? So I think you sort of drift into it And then when I became a PE teacher, so when I left school and I was at Brighton in the youth team and got experience of coaching there. So, but I think the coaching element itself is, I think it's something that's in your head to start with and then it gravitates or matures into you doing it, helping other people. You see what I mean? It was very selfish at the beginning. I just wanted to score more goals and they needed to help me and the teacher was hopeless. So it's down to me.

[Jamie]

I hope they're not listening.

[Paul]

I hope he is.

[Jamie]

What was your experience like taking that first class then? You say that you started out as a PE teacher?

[Paul]

Oh that's scary as hell, you know I worked in a, I was taking football, the football team in a rough school in North London, you know and they're looking at you going go on then, you know there's a few clubs and they were, I took the older ones, 15s and year 10 at school they were quite feisty, you know They got over that bit, they started to question. And they'd go, go on, show us what you got then. So I was playing at the time non-league so I could demonstrate. It was a challenge because kids are pretty tough on you. You know, particularly if you're in the school team and they play a bit and they play with their mates and stuff. You know, they're saying, well what are you going to tell us then? You know what I mean? It's quite a challenge I think.

[Jamie]

Yeah. What was it that you kind of enjoyed about, whether it be teaching, coaching or obviously now helping coaches themselves, what do you enjoy about that?

[Paul]

I think it's like handing out tips and then seeing that work, seeing them have a go. So you're actually, what's the word, I suppose it, what you're impacting on them all the time and sometimes it didn't work, sometimes it did, but it's that thing of going, oh we worked on that, he listened or she listened and oh they're doing it in a game and then you think, blimey I've had some influence over them, if you see what I mean.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paul]

So like sending messages and then you suddenly that bit where they're doing it in a game, you suddenly see they've listened, if you see what I mean. They've received it and had a go.

[Louise]

And I guess you see them growing from that and them really enjoying the fact that they're able to do something different as well. It must be quite nice seeing them, how they react to that as well.

[Paul]

Yeah, and some do, as all kids will do, some do better than others. Some will never progress to the level that maybe you think they should progress to but that's not my job to sit there. My job is to send messages out to all the players we've got and then to see who picks up on the key ones and runs with it.

[Louise]

Can you give us a bit of insight into what your journey was like to the role that you've got today? Like how did you get there from starting with teaching and what have you and then how did you?

[Paul]

So I was a PE teacher and all I wanted as coach was football. You know, year 11 badminton didn't do it for me. You know, I wanted to do football. So I took, I took district teams when I worked in Enfield, county teams, from quite a young age. And also some of my peers that I went to college with and played football with also were taking teams in the same area, so there was a lot of competition between us and that was fun. And then Crystal Palace was running a center near where I said you wanna Yeah I'll have a go So I had a scooter at the time and I was taking a bag of balls and all the kit up the A10 on a scooter with a Crystal Palace thing on my back. You know, the stick I got from them from the traffic is unbelievable. With this big, about 20 footballs in the well of this scooter. That was my part-time journey into football, that was in Enfield. And then also I worked for Crystal Palace in Bracknell. They had a centre there and far away from Palace. But it was, that was tough. Tough kids, good. Both areas, Enfield and things. So I had a sort of, it wasn't an easy ride, that's for sure. Well, a scooter wasn't, but like, it wasn't an easy ride. Yeah, that was tough

[Louise]

And then from there Like how did you end up with The FA?

[Paul]

So I went full-time one of the gurus of the game, John Cartwright, who in my opinion is the biggest influence over me, simply because he confirmed what I was thinking about the game, not he told me anything new, although he did. But it wasn't that, it was more he just confirmed, yeah you're on the right tracks, the way you think about the game. So he hired me full-time at Crystal Palace. So I left teaching, went into Palace and then came out of Palace after about eight years. Did a regional role at the FA, worked at the Beckham Academy for a year in Los Angeles and London, so that was quite Hollywood, as you might expect. Yeah, that was interesting. Went to Brighton as a head of Academy coaching and now I'm back here again. And in between I've taken the, I took a WSL team at Brighton, done grassroots teams. Before I was working at Palace, by the way, I did community at Brentford. So a lot of grassroots stuff. And I took the amputees, the England amputees to the World Championships. So I've had a bit of a broad experience.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I see you've got a lot of experience across like in all the corners.

[Paul]

Oh and when I was at Palace I took the first team now and again when I didn't take the first team but I took players in the first team and then next day I'm working with the under 14s, you see what I mean? So, a broad spectrum.

[Louise]

Kind of like shifting your different types of coaching I guess to the different...

[Paul]

Oh yeah, I think that's maybe what missing a little bit with some coaches now is they specialize in one part coaching but coaching is a broad church so some of the best coaches I've ever seen can turn their hands to grassroots. I think disability is the big challenge, you know, I think I failed miserably at the start of that Because I didn't get it right for them because I didn't know how it worked how they worked and operated And then I said to them after the first session I'll get it right for you. I will get it right for you and By all accounts I did all right, but I think sometimes the coaches now may be specialized too early in one area and forget So I see coaches working in academies Who work in grassroots who work in schools? Well, they're really dexterous, you know, they're very adaptable to different scenarios. I quite like that.

[Jamie]

Would that be kind of like your main piece of advice to coaches now, is to kind of try and coach in different formats and different areas of the game?

[Paul]

Yeah, I think so, and different ages. Yeah. I think grassroots is interesting because it tends to be the lads and lasses go up with the age groups. If you go to academies you can get locked into being an under 13 coach and you don't have access to the younger ones or the older ones necessarily and I understand that but for development there's nothing better than being able to shift between ages and shift between domains as well like grassroots. Why is grassroots still football? You know and When I did the WSL team for Hope, Hope Powell was running the team at Brighton and she said, look, can you take it? Because she was off to something else and, you know, we were playing Sheffield United and there was a thing on me for to win, you know, like, and when you're working in development football sometimes that like, Suddenly I'm turning my hand to know I need to win this game. Fortunately I did. Yeah, by the skin of my teeth. Yeah, but, so the variation has been quite important I think.

[Louise]

I think it's important to just go back to the thing where you said about that you didn't get it right at first and you found it quite challenging when you're working in disability football, that kind of, you won't always get it right first time and sometimes it's just shifting the way that you're thinking or...

[Paul]

No, if you work with school kids, in grassroots or anything, one of the big things is just be prepared to be wrong, but just get it better next time. Don't continually being wrong, do you see what I mean? But you will get, because if you're not prepared to be wrong you'll never create anything. So you have to have that sort of, don't be too worried about that. Because providing the kids are playing football and can come off saying, you know what I played football tonight, you've got them, see what I mean. So I think the game will always get you out of jail.

[Jamie]

Taking everything in from your journey so far, what advice would you maybe give to your younger self to prepare them for stepping into the world of teaching or coaching for the first time?

[Paul]

If I was taking the younger self is like what I've just said to you just don't worry about being wrong because it will happen. What you've got to do is recognise how you can make it better and get better because when I was starting out in PE I was hopeless. You know, like, I don't mean literally hopeless, but actually I think I was, right? But I would try things and it didn't work. Or, you know, my school team would get battered and I would take, think it was my fault and stuff, but I had to be a little bit more reflective and that comes with experience and opportunity and doing more and more and more of it and then you learn the ropes and then you're more confident to say well I'm gonna have a go at that. This will work with these ages, this will work with... If you coach across different ages you really do get an understanding of child development and kids development.

[Jamie]

What would be the best piece of advice that maybe you've ever received from somebody in your journey so far?

[Paul]

Someone tapped me on the shoulder on a course, he said to me, whatever you do, never stop being yourself. He said, just be yourself. And because the kids will find you out, the game will find you out, you cannot role play anything different. Because I did a session doing this thing and he said, that's not you. And I went, well yeah, but you wanted me to do that for the course he said no no be yourself I thought I'll buy that one so I would say to people like if you're the character and the personality for this job and it fits and keep your character don't try and be somebody else just because it fits some sort of plan or something like that because you get found out. Kids will ruthlessly expose you for that. They'll trip you up.

[Jamie]

Is that in terms of being yourself in terms of characteristics effectively?

[Paul]

Yeah and the other thing about being yourself is because you then become consistent in the way you talk to people, the way you are, you might be vulnerable. Kids don't mind that, but if you're for them and all for them, you'll build that trust. And the ones, the kids that trust you most know that you're consistent, that's him. Yeah, like we used to have a coach, when I was at school, he's hopeless. Yeah, but he's really nice. And all he does is give us the shirts and lets us get on with it. Keep him happy. And that's the thing. I think you build that trust and the trust is important. So how on earth are you going to get messages across to someone who doesn't trust you? Because one minute you're like this and the next minute you're like that. Sometimes that happens between training and games, turn into a different animal at game time. Kids notice that, they need to have some consistency. So I think that comes with coaching experiences and somebody telling you, by the way, because sometimes you just don't know. And when he tapped me on the shoulder and said, like, you know, like, just be yourself. He was saying, that's not you. Yes, this is you. Happy days.

[Louise]

If you could give a piece of advice to help coaches make a positive impact on players' journeys, what would that be?

[Paul]

You need to understand who's in front of you. And Pete Sturgis and, you know, like, the guru that he is would say, in order to coach John or whoever it is, you need to understand John. But you also need to understand the game. I would say be a ruthless studier of the game, because then you will give them those gems, those little gems that they need, at the right time. I think the understanding the game is massive so those two things understand the game and understand that the people in front of you, what do they need and how can you help? You could throw those around in your head, who are they in front of me? So if those were England under 19s, you'd help them differently. Same game, but you would be different to them if they were under nine grassroots and female and male as well Understanding the differences of what works and what doesn't I think that's important

[Jamie]

I think and that also really nicely ties into the rest of the show as well Paul, is that really understanding players because what we're gonna now dive into is the growth and maturation side and trying to get a bit more of an introduction into that really. So to start with this, what does growth and maturation mean to you and why is it important for coaches to learn about it?

[Paul]

I'm not sure coaches have to learn about it. I think they have to see it because it's natural. All kids grow, just some grow quicker than others in various areas. So some are, you'll see some kids on the picture are tactically really mature. Well the word maturity is about ripe isn't it? You know a mature apple is a ripe one. What we're talking about here is a journey, we're not talking about the end. We're talking about that they are growing and that's what the kids do funnily enough, they grow and some are showing these evidence of maturity but in not necessarily all physical and we tend to add we have to look at growth and maturity and we saturate it with the physical but like for example I taught a kid who was 12 football at school because he he was a county swimmer he was very mature socially because he's used to dealing with adults In the swim club he was talking to 35 year olds, they were talking to him. And another one who wasn't exposed to that wasn't so mature because he didn't have those experiences. So I think when we're looking at maturity we have to look across. It's not just physical. Tactical maturity is something, for example, in kids that is learnt over a long period of time. And we talk about things like mental toughness. Oh, it's not mentally tough. Well, that's learnt. And mature players learn how to be mentally tough and it takes time. So I think there's loads of journeys going on. It's not just physical. Physical is the one that there's a lot of academia about and a lot of academic articles about, you know, like growth spurts and all that stuff. But I think for coaches is looking at the kids in front of you and you can see it clear as day. You'll see it absolutely clear as day that that boy or girl is more mature physically than someone else. But where are, what about psychologically? What about socially? You know you can't just lump maturity into the physical. Some kids who have played a lot of football since they were five can play the game in a very mature way and someone who's just arrived looks naive. Do You see what I mean? So I think if we looked at maturity and growth, it's a minefield in one respect, but it's very simple. It's where are they on the, on their journey? You know, and that's why I don't like dividing things into phases of 5 to 11, 12 to 16. I understand why we do it because it links in with schools. Primary schools, 5 to 11, secondary schools and then sixth form and college after that. But kids are on that sort of continuum somewhere, you know, and don't worry about the phases, just where are they? You know, I knew you'll get some kids who are 10 and They look older than someone who's 14. Kids cannot control how fast they grow. So that can be difficult for some children, especially when they grow quickly. Doesn't affect anyone, but sometimes, yeah, but we have to look also at other forms of maturity, even down to language. Some kids use, because they're in households where language is maybe words and everything, they'll talk to you in a very mature language. You see what I mean? So I think it's very broad.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it's almost like understanding kind of like their experiences more than anything.

[Paul]

Exactly that. So environment, the experiences they've had and what's in front of you. You know, they're a product of their environment, they're a product of their upbringing, they're a product of probably the geography and that's what you've got. So what do they need? How can you help? See what I mean? So I think it's that, it's opening your eyes a bit and being more aware of that and then have strategies to if you need to deal with it, because actually most growth and maturity issues you don't have to deal with, it's natural. The kids deal with it. Yeah, so I spoke to a lad the other day, he's under 14 and he's about six foot and he wasn't a few months ago, right, maybe nine months ago he wasn't. And he said, I said, you know it's temporary and you'll be all right and he went I just feel like I'm in a new body. He said, I can't do... And I said, well, this is... You know what's happening? So I explained to him what's happening and said, this is natural, enjoy it. He said, at the end of it you'll be fine. It is temporary and we'll help you through it or the coaches will help you through it. Do you see what I mean?

[Louise]

Well I guess it's like, say if you're in a new body, it's like trying to learn how to use that body when you're used to doing things in one way, all of a sudden it's completely different.

[Paul]

Well the parent, it's interesting isn't it, because I spoke to the parent and I was talking to her and she said he just eats the fridge out now, you know, when she's growing. He's got to feed the body. So there are other things you can see at home, like, you know, if he's starting to eat more or she's starting to eat more, feet grow first because nature says like look I'll tell you what send those feet out because if I don't and you go to six foot you're falling over.

[Jamie]

I suppose it kind of happens, growth of my training kind of happens differently for everybody doesn't it? But is the kind of, and I know you mentioned earlier that you're not fond of putting like age groups with this, but is it kind of like an age where it might be more expected? So for instance, you used the example obviously of an under 14, so basically teenagers, like where growth spurts tend to happen more and then therefore coaches working with teenagers just need to be a little bit more patient with the players at that age potentially.

[Paul]

If you look at the primary school ages and you look at child development, things like perception is a problem, trajectory, judging the ball, so sometimes with the younger ones, the ball comes out of the air and they miss it completely and that's not because they don't have abilities, sometimes their perceptual skills are not honed yet, that's through experience and then your body working it out. So the more you do it, you know, and over time that will sort itself out. It's interesting because puberty and things like that have a big effect on, in both male and female, you know, obviously the girls maybe start that process earlier. But kids now are starting puberty earlier than say the 19th century and so on and so forth. And that's to do with environment and stuff. So we are seeing, we are seeing maturity coming a little bit earlier. What we've got to take into account is that everyone, the differences is, and if when you get into teenagers, you see, and you'll know this, and everybody will see that teenagers are like sometimes Ferraris without any brakes, their behaviour suddenly you go, well where did that come from? That's because the brain is sorting itself out and the frontal lobe is growing faster than other areas. There's a medical thing there, but teenagers' behavior is attributed, can be attributed to growth more than, you know, just that they just want to be horrible. And they're not. Sometimes they just, that's why sometimes they do random things. So we've got to be aware of what's happening in the brain for teenagers. I think the transition from primary school to secondary school is an interesting one because you've got primary school kids who are pretty much their world is around just a few people, parents and maybe one or two teachers, and very, very local, but when they get into secondary school that is divided up, their peers become more important, parents start to take a back step or sit in the background a little bit and they've loads of teachers and loads of input you know and if they go to a football club they've got loads of people around them. If you think of teenagers now they go to grass if they're playing grassroots for they've got maybe four or five coaches and some do private stuff as well So there's a lot of people impacting on them. So that's to deal with as well, plus the social media stuff and all the stuff that goes with that. So they're pretty much inundated with information and that's difficult for teenagers. You know, somehow we've got to get the balance of that. So that's why it's really important that when we do coaching with teenagers, we give them more games and hold that information Hold it back till you know exactly what you know, I mean, it's different. I think with the younger ones Because they're sponges you can pretty much load them up with stuff, you know, and they'll be fine. Teenagers, I've got, because I've worked a lot with the teenagers and 17 and 18 year olds, you see that they're built to solve problems and that comes from, you know, like the natural thing about risk and reward. They're built for messing up. And how do we build that into the coaching and allow those natural processes? So I think understanding the natural stuff that goes on in the 5 to 11s, 12 to 16s, I'll talk about the 17s and 21s in a minute, but understanding what's going on that will really help you. And just tap into the natural, what's natural? It's natural for Teenagers to be competitive with each other. So put on practices that are competitive tap into the natural You know tap into the enthusiasm of the younger ones, but keep that enthusiasm going. So you see what I mean? It's not academic. It's just that thing again. Who are the players? What do they need and how can I help? So I mean, it's that sort of thing when you get a 17 and 17 and above which I suppose it's sick form and college You've now got Independence you've now got maybe hormonal changes which makes them quicker in the physical sense, you know, they are getting stronger, they'll have pressure, real pressure from peers and outside. Younger ones, yeah, are still, you know, hanging on to the coattails of their parents and stuff like that. It's just a different animal. Do you see what I mean? And they blur, you know, depending on the environment. You know, you can have some kids who are 13, some kids are carers at 13, you know, you just, it's the understanding of what's in front of you.

[Louise]

Do you think there's, I know we've talked about like understanding what's natural at the different age groups, but do you think it's important for people who are gonna coach girls and women to understand the menstrual cycle?

[Paul]

Oh, 100%. We have a responsibility to know what's going on, you know, like, and you know, as well as I do, the physical development of girls at certain times, we have to keep track of that. And we have to accept them. And I'm sure it's not my opinion only it's not the same as boys it has to be respected in a different way. It doesn't mean that the female players are any less competitive or not but there are different growth issues which is obvious yeah no so the answer to your question is yes yeah I

[Louise]

think it's just a really interesting subject to look into whether it's like understanding just for understanding it but actually if you understand the menstrual cycle and stuff it's actually a really interesting thing of how it physically changed the body and...

[Paul]

I think we can do better at the FA is looking at the physical differences you know with all coaches whether you take females or not whether you coach girls you might do in the future you know like I think we need to look at that in a little bit more detail.

[Jamie]

So thinking about everything that we've talked about so far, if you've got a player who's struggling in a session, they might not actually themselves link it to the fact that maybe they got a growth spurt for instance so do you have any top tips to help coaches maybe talk to the players about you know you provided a great example where you'd spoke to an under-14 that had shot up that was 6'4", like do you have any top tips to help coaches maybe approach those conversations to help players understand a little bit and to kind of relax them I suppose.

[Paul]

I think the conversation comes after you've noticed that there's a difference. If there's no difference, there's no conversation. Do you see what I mean? So kids will go through, can go through growth spurts if you like, some don't, just naturally grow and nothing changes. But the ones who suddenly are not doing what they could do before, it's the sort of like that draws your attention, you should be drawn towards that. In terms of the conversation and what was interesting when I talked to this lad, what he was really happy with is me making, one, making light and saying, it's not a problem. It's natural. And you will, I'm not making a joke of it by any stretch, but saying it's perfectly natural, you'll come out of it. But what you might, he needs to know how the coach is gonna, and you say, look, what might happen is, while you're sorting your feet out, and while this is going on, One, it's not an illness. Yes? You're not any less skillful because you've grown. Those skills will come back. It's just this messaging thing that's happening. And just explain about how it's working, how the body works. And so and give them a plan and say, and I'm not saying these exact words, but you might find that I might take you off the pitch for 10 minutes to give you a break, yeah, so you could just get yourself back on certain... Put them in games at certain times, so on and so forth, but don't make a big issue of it, because if you make a big issue of it, you've got to do this quite subtly, because suddenly all the other mates go, oh, you know, he's different. He's not different, he's just growing. Do you see what I mean? And so it's trying to keep the fluidity of what you're doing and the consistency, but building in the fact that that lad needs something slightly different. So it might be in practices where you make him a neutral player so you can't tackle him, yeah, or something like that. Something where you take the pressure off him but he's still contributing. Sometimes we make the mistake of The lads who go into these, who have the growth spurts, is they're now so apparent to their mates that this is happening. And suddenly, you might as well put a red hat on, saying I'm going through a growth spurt. And you don't need to. It's a private thing that he's going through. And some find it really difficult. And parents, you know, it's very expensive, parents have to buy new shoes and things like that. So they'd like it finished as quickly as possible. But you also talk to the parents about how the club or how the coach is gonna help him, you know, And we're not helping him because he's ill. What we're doing is this little thing that's happening, we're just gonna tweak something, you know? And I think talking to him like that is that it diffuses the situation, yeah? And sometimes I have to say, give maybe, and this is, if you're planning a practice, sometimes make the area a little bit bigger and everyone's got bigger But he could have more space or she could have more space to operate in. Do you know what I mean? Maybe less numbers somewhere where you subtly take the pressure off and don't expect too much.

[Jamie]

Yeah so it's like using the step framework basically to give them the better chance of success so that yeah they get more practice and maybe not as frustrated perhaps.

[Paul]

Yeah and if I might say is the whispering coach helps. And what I mean by that is you're not shouting things to this lad or lass that's in. What you're doing is you're just whispering in their ear as you go past. You go, it's all right, just take your time, you'll be all right. And as they come off the pitch, you say, that's all right. But no, make a big issue of it. Treat them exactly the same as everybody else. Because otherwise it does make it a little bit more difficult for them and they don't know what's happening you know they think oh my goodness now this lad shot up just unbelievable and that might change his position by the way eventually in the team as he gets into teenage years might decide that he can't be the fast little midfielder and that's something they've got to come to terms with but he can still contribute. I think the key is it's not it's not a problem It's a natural thing that all we've got to do is just be aware of, do they need help or not? Sometimes the skillful neglect is just leave them alone and keep an eye on them. They don't even know you're keeping an eye on them. But it is, It is interesting that what kids do like is you acknowledging that you've noticed there's a difference and this is the reason there's a difference. Yes? So it's kind of acknowledgement, reassurance? Acknowledgement, reassurance and then the personal touch, the quiet personal touch, not barking and hollering instructions, you know, like across the pitch, if you see what I mean.

[Louise]

And so if we think about like, not just growth spurts, is there any other things that coaches can do to kind of help adapt to any changes?

[Paul]

One thing they can do is recognise that as they go through teenage years, as they come out of primary school, into teenage years there's gonna be some bumpy rides going ahead, not with everyone. They'll change. Their social dynamics change, their reliance on their peers. So for example, you really would be very foolish to humiliate a teenager across the pitch in front of his peers. That is really no. You don't need to. If you've got something to say, it's a personal thing. The other thing is, as with 17, the boundaries, behaviour boundaries, it doesn't matter, those boundaries are stuck. These are the rules, this is what we stick by. Same with the younger ones, they will stick by the rules mainly. And also accept, I think, that as they go through from five all the way to 17, they're gonna annoy you. That's where you can really enjoy their company. And I think something we can do is just enjoy being in their company. I see sometimes with, I see some fantastic work with boys and girls in teenage years where they really enjoy being with them. And the kids know that. They like you being around, so they'll invite you in. I think with the younger ones there's the adult and child sort of relationship and they rely on you, really rely on you. The teenagers are less reliant on you but more reliant on their friends. So teamwork is massive, you know, getting the team ethic and I don't mean team tactics, I don't mean all team tactics, but getting this team ethic about we're in this together, we all help each other, we support each other, irrespective, you know, and that helps the growth spurts and stuff like that. And it's just recognizing and taking time out for coaches to just understand what's happening. It would be a great idea if coaches just think what they were like at those ages, if they can. I know what I was like at 14, you know, like sitting in the corridor of the school mainly. Just a complete, like, must have been, I know, and I'm thinking, yeah, but that happens, you know, what are these kids like, you know? And when we have them at grassroots or in academies, we don't know what they're like at school. We don't know what they're like at school. We don't know what they're like with their mates from schools. Make massive assumptions but you can only go on what you see. But it's just enjoy it, enjoy being with them and once you get that and the trust and stuff you can start coaching them. Do you see what I mean?

[Jamie]

Because they'll listen. You say there in terms of like you don't necessarily know what the players in front of you are maybe like outside of actually football. Do you have any top tips for maybe to help coaches work with parents or something to try and get maybe a bit of an understanding of that side to, well I suppose just to get a complete understanding of the players that you're working with.

[Paul]

Yeah I think you have to bring parents in and you often say you often see it there on the periphery of the cage you know on the outside like peering in and they're like ear-wigging what's going on, you know, but they don't know none. There's a thing, do you keep them at arm's length or do you invite them in? And I always think that if you've got a good environment and show the parents you've got a good environment and if you notice something with the kid that's done really well, tell the parent, and say, do you know what, I know, and these are little things, right, and don't forget a lot are in one parent families, where they are, sometimes the parent is absent, either by design or not, and others come armed with a load of fans. So we've got to get the balance right. We can't make that kid whose mum and dad is probably working, doing a shift work and can't get the kid to football. So someone else takes them, You know, it's not about you've got to be aware that all the parents are not going to be there all the time. You see what I mean? I'm not talking about means but it's just being sensitive to that.

[Jamie]

Paul, we've talked quite a lot about players obviously developing and maturing at different rates and I think kind of tied into that is the relative age effect. Can you kind of explain what that is and you know why is it important that we discuss that today?

[Paul]

Kids who are born in September because of the school year are in the same class as someone who's born in August. So the person born in September has got an 11-month advantage over the person born in August. So depending on where the month you're born determines certain advantages and disadvantages. It's clear in academies for example there's a high proportion of players that are born in the first part of the year, maybe September to December, and a very small portion born in the last part of the year. That's changing because of knowledge and education. It happens in other sports and it happens in education. You know you get someone like, I think they're trying to address it in education, I'm not sure how they're doing it, but in terms of GCSEs and things like that, if you're being tested on maths and someone's got an 11 year head start on you, 11 months, they've got an 11 month maturity difference. But there's a problem because you can't rely on just the month you're born to determine what the maturity status of that particular individual is. So how many times you see someone born in the 1st of September and their dots and someone born in August can be quite mature. So there are there are sort of bucks to the trend if you like. And what we've got to be careful of, and this is why I say, look, be careful with making assumptions that because they're born early, they're maturer, they've got more sort of elements of maturity than someone born in August. You have to use your eyes and you've got to look at it in a complete, in a different way because I know someone who's born in September and is socially, say he's in under 15, he's socially about under 12, if you could put it there. And someone in August, socially, is 21. There's no, you know, it's a guide, but it's not a definitive path, it's not necessarily, there's patterns by the way, and you can see it, so I think there's 57% or odd in academies are born in the first part of the year. That might be due to their physical ability in grassroots is more apparent, you see what I mean? So I think you might be picking on the physical. But the younger ones, ironically, when they're much older, it evens itself out and they become, you know, it's getting them in the system and keeping them in the system at the earliest part. So the relative age effect has a real value, but it's not the only measure of maturity and it certainly doesn't measure psychological maturity, social maturity, emotional maturity. You know you could have a kid that's bored early but his emotional intelligence, he might be 17, 18, but his emotional intelligence is much younger. So when we're looking at maturity, and I think I said it at the beginning, let's look at it as a broad concept. It's not just the physical.

[Louise]

And is there anything coaches can do to judge how far away or how far through a growth spurt players are? So is that, I think it's called the maturation status?

[Paul]

There's markers about puberty, yeah so there's an indication. You know that, you know around 10 to 12 something's going to happen, you know for females and maybe a bit younger, and 15 to 17, they've probably gone through that. So there's markers. But again, I say, use your eyes. Your eyes will tell you everything. You know, like you can see, you'll see some boys 14, that's suddenly developing hairs on the back of their legs and so on and so forth, you'll see the markers. Clear as day. And your eyes won't betray you. You know, and that's the thing, but don't make assumptions. Don't make assumptions that just because a kid is going through and if you use growth spurt just as a thing it's only a little thing and no no sorry it's a big thing to the kids but what I'm saying is is in terms of maturity as I said before it's it's a part of the family of maturity you've got to look outside the physical, as well as the physical, is for the majority of kids, growth spurts have no problems. Now when you come to females and menstruation and things like that, for some it's really tough and we have to, we just got to be aware of these key markers and the likelihood is that's going to happen here. This is what's likely to happen in these ages, not what's definitely going to happen but what's likely to happen. And the registry now that, you know, like in America some of the puberty and it's starting much earlier for you know some kids and others and that also black Afro-Caribbean boys in America you know that there is a difference between them and Hispanic and so on and so forth. There is, there's some in work which I'm not completely familiar with, but they are sort of looking at sort of heritage use and things like that to see if there's any difference. But eyes, and the kids will tell you and parents, you know, like, you know, like, watch the parents going on, I bought him new boots. Why? His feet are grown. Ah, clue. He's eating so much. He's growing. You know, there's a source of really simple things.

[Jamie]

Looking back at everything we've discussed today then, can you summarise maybe the key top tips you'd like listeners or anybody watching this to take away from this episode?

[Paul]

If you understand, and I'll go back to these three questions, who are the kids, who are the players, and I mean individually as well as collective. Who are they? What do they need? And how can you help? And some will need, if you look at maturity and you look at something, some will need extra help, some won't. And the key is not to make a big fuss over it, it's just to spot it and see if you can do anything about it. And if you do something little, you could have a big change. You don't have to do anything dramatic. You just have to identify it in the first place. It doesn't stop you planning sessions and winning games and running games. It just means you've got that personal touch. And as you go through the ages, doesn't matter what age you are, that personal touch, as I said to you at the beginning with that this teacher, the maths teacher in a suit, ridiculous as it sounds, that personal touch I never forgot. See what I mean? And so they will never forget it either. And I think you have an obligation to be remembered, not for what you told them, but how you made them feel and how you looked after them.

[Louise]

And if we were to ask you to give set like a coaching challenge to listeners to start thinking about what we've spoken about today? What would you get them on the path for kind of thinking and putting some of this into practice?

[Paul]

I would say to coaches, look at your group and can you see the differences? You can pick one area, physical. Can you see the differences? Psych, emotional, anything, can you see the differences? Can you say, oh my goodness, he or she's there and... Do you see what I mean? It's to see if you can identify difference in your group. It's not an academic exercise, it's quite fun. And then saying, wow, do I need to do anything or not? And that's the key, you don't have to do, maybe you do nothing, you don't have to intervene because everything's fine. But you might think, no, no, if I did this, this would take this player on to another level or help. All you're there to do is help, help them get better at football. See what I mean? How on earth are you going to help them get better at football if you don't know the subjects? It's not knowing your subject, it's knowing your subjects.

[Jamie]

Right, well Paul, we are coming up to the end of the show now, but that does mean it's time for our swift session feature.

[Louise]

Yep, so a bit like at the top of the show, we've got a 30 second challenge. So we're going to ask you to explain a session idea to us in those 30 seconds or a practice idea. Are you up for this challenge?

[Paul]

Go on then.

[Louise]

Okay, again there's music in the background so when that starts you can begin.

[Paul]

Right, got a pitch, even sides, game, big goal at one end, you score in that goal, little goal at the other end, no goalkeeper, only one goalkeeper at the other end, but you've got a zone in front of the little goal, one team has to get into the zone to score, The other team gets double score if they score against the goalkeeper and then swap ends. Perfect. Didn't need 30 seconds. No, not at all.

[Louise]

I like it. Have you got anything else you want to add to that?

[Paul]

Yeah, you can have a narrow pitch and a wide pitch at the same time. And you sometimes call narrow, wide. So one team is shooting against the goalkeeper so they will take rat shots as often as possible and because it's double score they will try and shoot at every opportunity. The other team have got to work the ball with possession into the zone in order to score. No goalkeeper, you can have blockers, someone can block it. And what the team in possession will do is frustrate the hell out of the team with, they'll keep the ball because they can't score and they swap ends. And then sometimes you could layer, you can narrow the pitch off and say narrow and they all come in and play the same game but on a narrow pitch. Wide. See what I mean? You could have yellow cones for the narrow pitch and white cones and you could call yellow and they all come into the yellow pitch play the same game but it's tighter so you get different it's tighter then you go wide, wide, wide and big pitch and then you get crossing and things and it's so simple but glorious and the other thing is it's not symmetrical so it's big goal at one end because sometimes you don't have two big goals and you only got one goalie well set a challenge for the team going that way.

[Jamie]

I like that, brilliant. Yeah really good idea well yeah thank you very much for your time today Paul and we have come to the end of the episode and we've really packed in quite a lot today but it's been great having you back on and really giving an introduction to this topic. It's been fascinating listening to your stories and to hear your thoughts on the topic. Hopefully you've enjoyed being back on with us in the studio. Great fun. Glad to hear it.

[Paul]

Checks in the post.

[Jamie]

But yeah, no, thank you very much for coming on today and hopefully you'll be back on soon. Thank you. Right, well that is all we have time for today, but don't forget to check out the description for the transcription of this episode and for all of the links to our platforms. There you'll be able to click through to the England football community and this is where you can post your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast or just simply to connect with loads of wonderful coaches.

[Louise]

Yep, we'd love to help you out with your coaching questions so please do check it out. We'll be back soon with another episode of Coachcast so if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode. From all of us at England Football Learning, thanks for listening.