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[Jamie]

Hello and welcome to Coachcast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game. I'm Jamie and as always I'm with Louise and today we're chatting with Lee Brown, an FA coach development officer, to hear about his journey so far and to talk about movement skills. Well hi Lee, welcome to the show for the first time. How are you?

[Lee]

I'm good thank you, Thank you for having me.

[Louise]

It's really nice to have you on with us. Can you start us off by just telling us or telling everybody a little bit about what it is that you do?

[Lee]

Yeah, I think just simply help coaches and I'm very fortunate enough to do that. And that could be at various levels of the game from grassroots up until one or two coaches that work in an academy. So, yeah, very, very fortunate that I just get to help coaches and support coaches and provide maybe some of my experiences and yeah, help them along the way.

[Louise]

Perfect.

[Jamie]

Thank you. Speaking of helping coaches along the way, as this is a coaching podcast, you know, coaches could be on the way to training while they're listening to this. So we always like to give them some top tips at the start of the show.

[Louise]

Yeah and it's also a bit of an arrival activity for you, warm you up and get you used to it.

So it's going to be a 30 second challenge and we're going to ask you to give us many or give a really good top tip that you can in those 30 seconds. Sound okay?

[Lee]

Yeah, let's go.

[Louise]

Cool. Once the music starts, you can begin.

[Lee]

So I would say, when you are on the way to training, like think about your players, there is a 100% chance that your players are not gonna do what you want them to do, whether that's in terms of their behaviour or whether that's applying some of the practices that you have planned out. So what I would say is two things. First of all, think about yourself and your coaching behaviours and what impact that has had. And secondly, think about the coaching practices that you put on because quite often when kids mess around or young people mess around and don't listen, oh, timed out. Can I carry on just quickly?

[Louise]

Absolutely.

[Lee]

Quite often it's because either you're talking too much as a coach or maybe they're a little bit bored of the practices. So I think we have to look internally at ourselves when it comes to players not doing what we want them to do before we start to criticize or blame players. So 100% chance the players won't do what you want them to do for the whole time at training, to have patience with that and reflect upon what we do as coaches.

[Louise]

Perfect, really good one to think about.

[Jamie]

Yeah, love that. Well we'll go on to the main part of the show Lee and we always kind of start this with new guests on the show by asking them what was your first experience of football like?

[Lee]

My first experience was a really small primary school with like not many kids at all in the school and somebody who loved football and liked playing football I guess I was probably one of the better players there that kind of held everything together that was my first one around playing in the playground and then subsequent to that I ended up playing for a grassroots team, which then become a little bit more challenging. So yeah, my first experience was like primary school in the school playgrounds, and then you end up going to play for a local grassroots team. And yeah, that was kind of where it all began really.

[Louise]

Sounds like you're probably always the star almost at the primary school and then kind of a bit more challenging as you went on to...

[Lee]

Maybe, I was alright at primary school and it probably got worse after that, yeah.

[Louise]

No, for sure, no, it's good. And what about coaching? When did your interest in coaching start?

[Lee]

Yeah, it's probably linked to what I've just said, like it got to a stage where probably wasn't good enough and kind of started to realise that and then that those moments where kind of some not somebody tells you like you're not good enough but you start to realise it and I still played a little bit but then kind of went actually maybe I could go around the coaching route I think I've got something to share I was probably a little bit less mature than others and I wanted to go to like the soccer schools in the school holidays for like a longer period and yeah I was kind of said look do you want to come and help the young kids now as opposed to being part of that and yeah that was my introduction really to coaching the fact that I wasn't I wasn't bad at football but I was told at some stage that you're not really going to make it or figure that out, not really going to make it. Got a little bit too old to take part in some of the soccer schools and the school holidays and I was offered an opportunity to get involved in coaching. Maybe tying laces is probably a better term for it, picking cones up, but yeah, helping some of the younger players there. And that was my kind of first experience of coaching where I kind of got the bug.

[Louise]

It must be a really nice feeling actually to know that there's a place for you within the game and kind of doing something and kind of passing your knowledge on as well.

[Lee]

Yeah, I think so. I guess there'll be coaches listening who are still playing, coaches listening who have stopped playing, some people who have never coached they've never played the game before but yeah you end up finding your a place if you like in the game of football and I guess I end up yeah still played and things but yeah I found coaching was something where I could hopefully excel at to a certain extent.

[Jamie]

What was that first experience like of actually running a session then for you?

[Lee]

Scary. You've got these group of young people in front of you that hang on to your every word and you don't want to say the wrong thing, you don't want to put the wrong thing on and you want to give them a really really good experience. So when you're in the infancy of coaching you've got all these things going through your head what should I do what shouldn't I do what do the players need what are the parents gonna think so it's quite a daunting experience when you because you've got loads of factors to consider into it yes it was quite a scary experience looking back and reflecting on that with a group of young players. I call them the space cadets because they bounce off planets like the five and six-year-olds who just run around and go crazy. So yeah, they hang off your every word but in terms of how you put things across to them and how you work with them, Yeah, that can be really daunting.

[Louise]

And what would you say that your favourite thing about coaching is?

[Lee]

Without a doubt, smiles on faces. And that doesn't matter whether you are coaching five and six year olds or whether you are coaching senior professionals. When you see people winning games and winning competitions and more importantly, at the younger age groups, enjoying what they're doing and having smiles on faces, I would say that is a really really good gauge of success. The challenge as a coach is how do we put smiles on faces? What do we do to make sure that the environments we create, the practices that we provide, the match days that we put we give our players how do we make sure that they always give smiles on faces win lose or draw and I think that would be the big thing for me is yeah having smiles on faces.

[Jamie]

What did you do it like in your environment then for those space cadets to put smiles on their faces when you first started coaching then?

[Lee]

So I probably wasn't great at this, so I'm kind of reflecting, I think I did a lot of practices where there was some standing around, where I was kind of dictating things, you start here and finish here, when it might be go and stop. So I think those things I reflect on to go actually I could have done a little bit better, but I guess you don't know things until you've you've had a go and you experience stuff. So I think that the things that kids like they always are when are we gonna play a match whether you are five years old or even into adults they want to play a match or all a play a game which is a goal at both ends and two teams Now whether that's a 5v5 or an 11v11 or even some 1v1s, if you can put a goal at both ends or a method of scoring at both ends and having two teams that compete against each other, that is essentially what your players are asking for. So to design some practices, that's the bit where I guess I've reflected on and gone, yeah, probably wasn't great in the first kind of period of my coaching journey, if you like. I think in terms of putting smiles on faces and what players want, yeah, certainly a goal at both ends or a method of scoring at both ends and two teams competing against each other. If we can put some practices on on those terms, your players tend to

[Jamie]

be really engaged and like that sort of stuff. Yeah, great advice that, for anybody listening, great advice, play the game. That's what we like to see. If we can pick up from where you've started coaching, can you kind of give us a little bit of detail into the journey from that moment to where you are today?

[Lee]

Yeah, I guess there's probably not many levels or people that I haven't kind of coached. I say people, that'd be millions, wouldn't it? But no, in terms of my journey, kind of starting off with like young kids at soccer schools, ended up helping my brother's kind of little village under eights, nines team. So I guess some of the, lots of the coaches will be doing that ended up doing some football in schools with girls football trying to grow participation and we're talking several years ago now so this is not necessarily current did a load of work in disability football used to be involved in running a multi-disability football club, then you go on to development centres, kind of academy players, youth team kind of players, kind of Sunday league sort of stuff and then you end up going to kind of non-league football as well. So yeah, I guess I've just coached a plethora of people and different ability levels and all those kind of things. So yeah, I guess it's just a broad range of experiences as opposed to kind of being quite tunneled in where I've coached.

[Louise]

And then what's led you to this role in particular or how long have you been in this role?

[Lee]

Yeah, so in terms of coach development and helping coaches, it's something where I figured probably mid-20s that I wanted to go into something like this, having watched other people and set up coach development events. So I kind of, yeah, pushed myself into kind of learning a little bit more about developing coaches and how I could share some of my experiences, putting myself in positions where I could do some kind of tutor training, teaching qualifications, those kind of things to be able to, I guess, share knowledge effectively. So yeah, it was something that, yeah, I might not look 21 at the moment, but yeah, kind of early 20s. We're talking 20ish years ago. Yeah, maybe just shy of that, that I kind of wanted to go into where, where I thought I could maybe help other people and share some knowledge and some of those experiences of coaching that I've, I've built along the way.

[Jamie]

If you was to kind of to take everything in that, you know, you've learned from those experiences, What advice would you maybe give to your younger self to prepare them for stepping into the world of coaching for the first time?

[Lee]

I think that being patient is something that everybody needs now that could be patient with players because in terms of development if you coach under 18 you take them to under 18s don't want to scare people but you've got 10 years worth of work that you can do with your players. So being patient with younger players, even the more experienced players, because they won't necessarily be able to apply everything that you throw at them, especially in pressurized environments where the opposition is trying to stop them doing it. So I think one of the things to bear in mind is being patient with young people. And the other thing I would say is be patient with yourself as a coach as well, because quite often we want to kind of run before we can walk. Whether that's the right phrase or not, I don't know. But especially that there's some younger coaches that want to go and work in an academy or want to go and work in professional football. And I think that, yeah, as coaches, be patient with the players, but be patient with ourselves and then subsequently be open-minded to maybe what we don't know. And I think coming out of playing the game and people who've got experience of playing the game and being coached, that doesn't necessarily make everybody a brilliant coach. So being open-minded to reflect and realise what is a brilliant coach? What is going to allow you to put smiles on faces? What will allow you to display some patience with developing some knowledge on coaching, potentially the game but certainly around coaching. So yeah, patience and open-mindedness are two things that I would suggest are really important.

[Louise]

And what would you say is the best piece of advice that you've ever received?

[Lee]

I remember somebody once saying, I'm sure there's a quote from somebody, that players don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And I don't know who said that, but somebody said it to me and it really resonated with me in terms of finding out who your players are, getting to know them, getting to know their families, getting to know what goes on away from the game of football and showing that you care. Yeah, players don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. That really resonated with me and I think is a really important thing for coaches to consider.

[Jamie]

It's a great thing to do as well, isn't it, in terms of to have a positive impact on players as well isn't it?

[Lee]

Absolutely, I think at every level of the game, whether you're working in the WSL, you're working in the men's Premier League, you're working at grassroots football, you have to have a connection with your players and you have to figure out what that connection looks and feels like for your players because it's going to be different with a group of under 7s. I think it's going to be different with Manchester United or whatever it is. It's going to be different. So yeah, it's just considering what it is, what's that connection with the players so they buy into what you want them to do. You end up creating a really positive and fruitful environment to develop players and enjoy the game and love the game.

[Jamie]

Absolutely. Now Lee, the main theme of today's show is around movement skills. So I suppose to start, what movement skills do you know coaches need to support players to develop to actually help them play football?

[Lee]

Yeah, so I would say like if you coach the youngest age group of players, like the 5 to 11s, well certainly like the 5 year olds, 6, 7, 8, 9 year olds, like movement skills, if I'm delivering a coaching session to a group of players, they are fundamental to everything that I would do because if you can't adjust and adapt your body to the needs of the game, it's really difficult to play the game effectively. So for example, if you can't move to control the ball, you can't subsequently pass it, as a really brief example. If you can't move to the trajectory of the ball to control it, you can't necessarily dribble with it effectively. So I would say, especially at the youngest age group of the game, but as you go through and refine some of those skills, and I know we'll talk about those a little bit later on, but certainly yeah having some really proficient movement skills are essential to be able to apply some of the tactics associated with the game.

[Jamie]

When we were organising this show and wanting to talk about movement skills we did a little bit of research into the topic and we came across the terms fundamental, locomotive and football specific movements. Can you kind of tell us what the difference between those actually are and how coaches can actually help players develop in those areas?

[Lee]

Yeah this could go from a one hour podcast into a three hour one. So in terms of fundamental movement skills, that will be kind of agility, balance and coordination. So your ability to kind of move your body left, right, you better balance. Think about somebody like Lionel Messi. I know we're gonna talk about what he looks like on a football pitch in a second, but in terms of like being able to dodge, weave and twist and turn and all those things that associate with agility, balance and coordination. So coordinating your body and staying balanced at the same time. So that will be kind of your, your fundamental movement skills. And linking back to the previous question, that's why I think it's really important for the youngest age group of players, because without those things it's really difficult to play the game. You then talk about locomotive skills, movement skills, so that's more kind of isolated skills which could be running or jumping or skipping, which are I guess repetitive actions if you like. Now, if you didn't start to couple those repetitive actions with agility, balance and coordination and put a football on a pitch and a load of players on the pitch, you've got to be able to use some of those dodging, weaving, twisting, turning, the balancing agility coordination skills alongside things like jumping. So jumping off one leg and landing on the other and staying balanced at the same time. In terms of sprinting to accelerate but then having to decelerate to maybe close a player down and stay balanced. Well you do that. So if you think of it as some of the fundamental things that we have around agility, balancing and coordination, then coupled with things like running and jumping, skipping, hopping, those things in isolation, couple the two things together, put a ball on the pitch, put players on the pitch. Now we have to combine all those things based on the problems and challenges that the opposition and game throw at us.

[Louise]

Quite complex.

[Lee]

It sounds quite complex but yeah, essentially it's supporting players to be able to move effectively to be able to do it

[Jamie]

What does that look like on the pitch then if you was to design a session to make sure that all those movement skills are actually Being worked on

[Lee]

first of all if in terms of supporting players. I love tag games So anything where you've got to tag somebody, where you're gonna have to change pace, change direction, dodge, weave, twist and turn. Those things are brilliant to support young players to develop some of those fundamental movement skills. Now, if you couple that up with, let's say it's a tag game, but you're only allowed to jump, where you're going to develop some of those locomotive skills alongside some of the fundamental movement skills, but which they'll all be always be doing when they're running, when they're walking, whether hopping, those things. So you can be really explicit with some tag type games to develop certain locomotive skills as well as the fundamental movement skills. So that's the big thing for me is that loads of tag-type games, which kids love as well. So smiles on faces going back to that. Kids love to play it. Why do they do things in the playground? Well, they love doing that. Play stuck in the mud or whatever that might be. So Yeah, those tag-type games are fantastic to support your players.

[Louise]

At what age or stage of development should coaches focus on refining those movement skills, would you say?

[Lee]

I guess if you were to, I guess, put it into like primary school age and secondary school age. Now I'm not suggesting that you wouldn't refine things at a younger age or compartmentalise in it, but one of the things, kids start to lose their flexibility kind of around the age of 10, around kind of puberty, and there's research alongside that if coaches want to go and read it. But certainly the primary school age where you're developing some of those things and then you start to go into the secondary school age, and I'm generalising because it could be different for different young people but certainly to continue those tag-type games into senior players or youth players if you like, secondary school age and above, there's still some really positive outcomes around the refining of some of those movement skills but in terms of developing them yes certainly the younger age the refinement will will continue throughout.

[Jamie]

Kind of linking into that sort of refinement side of things how do coaches know potentially what good might look like and that might be different for different players so how can coaches kind of get a bit of a sense that you can spot maybe some poor movement skills or that actually movement skills need to be developed a bit further?

[Lee]

I think that's something which is quite subjective and you can see on a football pitch so when you when you go and watch a match maybe not your players but go and watch another game and you can look at how people move on the pitch. And I think moving in relation to opponents and moving in relation to the ball is two quite crucial things. So let's say the ball gets wellied down the pitch and somebody has to turn and run the other way like how quickly can they turn how effectively do they turn and then what's their acceleration like to get after the ball and then you can look at the mechanics of their ability to sprint for example so that would be a really kind of easy thing to look at you've also got that like if somebody's under pressure and they're being trying to knock off the ball. So let's say it's like Lionel Messi, for example, and somebody's trying to knock Lionel Messi off the ball when he's got it, when he's trying to dribble with it. Well, has he got the ability to stay balanced, that agility, balance and coordination, as well as run, so those locomotive skills, as well as have a ball at his feet. And you can see some players, and that's really difficult for players by the way, and I'm using somebody who all the coaches will recognise is probably outstanding at these things. But certainly when you look at players and physical contact, and are they able to maintain agility, balanced coordination with a ball at their feet? Is it without the ball, and like I said, an ability to turn and run after it, or chase an opponent to close them down? So I think it's, yeah, things that are tangible to the eye where you can recognise whether, you know, somebody's got really effective movement skills, or whether it's something you might need to support as a coach.

[Louise]

And just from your own experience, what level of movement skills have players had when you first started coaching them and what have you had to do to help them most?

[Lee]

So when you first start coaching a group of players, they're going to come with some movement skills that you have no control over. So you've got no control over what those movement skills are that you get from individuals. Now that could be genetics. So it could be you've got a group of players and genetically there's some that are just better than others. The other part of it would be around I call it opportunity and experience so you might get some young people that have had more opportunities and experience to take part in physical activities for various reasons and various different physical activities. So you're going to end up with young people who are going to have various movement skills. I think the important thing is in terms of what would you do is recognize that in the first instance as a coach and understand that and be comfortable with that? Like there's sometimes there's things that you are not going to be able to influence because they've already got a certain type of movement skills and movement patterns from genetics or opportunities and experience. If we can understand that, accept it, recognize it, we can start to support the players, refine what they've got, or if it's your young players in their infancy, your primary school age kids, we can actually start to think about how we might develop some of those skills that you might observe they haven't got. So something I guess just from a personal perspective, I don't want to come across as a parent who looks at movement skills all the time but like my two girls we like blow bubbles and play pop so for example I'm blowing bubbles at the bubble machine and they've got a chase around trying not to bump into each other trying to pop bubbles now that sounds mad but like in my head I'm going well that's going to help them in terms of some of their coordination their balance they're not going to bump into people they're trying to pop bubbles so there's just something really crazy and wacky like that I don't do it every day like I'm not this like mad parent get up in the morning you can't have your cereal you haven't played any

bubble pop.

[Louise]

Sounds like a great way to start the day!

[Jamie]

I mean it does, yeah.

[Lee]

But little things like that. So, yeah, I'm not suggesting everybody has to go and buy bubbles. I don't own a company so I'm not getting any money from people buying bubbles. But certainly, just things like that that could make a difference. Other things just to put out there, like if somebody's got older brothers and sisters and they copy them, there's a chance that those older brothers and sisters play sports and different sports, they might copy them, so their movement skills might be different altogether. You've also got things like where you live. If somebody lives in an apartment, then they might not be able to get out as much as somebody who has a backyard or a back garden who can kick a ball against the wall, for example, whatever it might be. So again, for coaches, it's understanding circumstances of individuals and what might have come before them and what might lend to their movement skills being what they are when you intercept those players.

[Louise]

I know we've just said that it's like very different depending on circumstances, but is there, are there any kind of common things that you see that is a challenge for most children or people?

[Lee]

In terms of common things, I think it's part of growing up, if you like, being able to balance on one leg. And you're about to do it at different times. Being able to jump off one leg and land on the other and balance. Being able to change direction really quickly and efficiently. They're things that children will do if you give them the right activities. So if you, you know, you're taking the dog for a walk and you're doing lots of walking every day, they'll get great at walking. If you're doing a bit of walking, you're playing tag with the kids at home, you're doing blowing bubbles for example, they're playing tag in the school playgrounds, they're playing hockey or basketball, there's going to be things that, yeah. So in terms of what you see, it's going to be quite, like, really varied. I think the coaches, when you're working with your players, you know, you'll appreciate these coaches that, you know, you're going to have varied levels of kids and different reasons why they have movement skills. So I wouldn't pigeonhole something to say that they're not great at something. I think as they get older, you develop movement skills and it's based on experiences and opportunities that they get. But yeah, certainly the coaches listening will be able to resonate. Like if you coaches, if you were to pick one player who you consider to be your best mover, like what is it they can do, which is different to those that are, that struggle a little bit. And I think to reflect on those things and then think about what you might do to support those individuals to be better. And also that your whizzy mover, if you like, what you do to refine them, yeah, that will be a consideration. But yeah, certainly to be able to dodge, weave, and twist and turn and jump and land off one leg and balance on one leg. And let's say you're turning and using your left leg as a driver to go forward or your right leg as a driver to go forward, all those things will be really important to the player. So yeah, I wouldn't kind of go one thing specifically.

[Jamie]

What are some of potentially the ideas that you could do to maybe adapt sessions? Say that you've got someone who is striving ahead, like you've just said, and then some that's maybe struggling, say it's turning to go defend the space in behind for instance and you've got a group of players that are actually struggling some that are striving what could you do to maybe adapt the session to help manage difference basically?

[Lee]

Some of the coaches on the call hopefully you may have heard of a principle called STEP that we use quite often, Space Task Equipment Players. So the first thing I would do is change the space. If you've got a bigger space, you're gonna have more distance to cover. If you've got a tighter space, less distance to cover. Now coupled with that, the number of players that you put within any given space will also affect the movement skills. So lots of players in a tight space is going to be lots of dodging, weaving, twisting, turning. Lots of players in a bigger space will be less dodging, weaving, twisting, turning and you might get bigger sprint distances for example. So changing the space as well as the players that operate in any given space will be quite crucial and that's not just to do a, I'm doing a practice to develop movement skills, but that's on a football pitch as well. So you could develop some technical skills alongside some movement skills. If I did something in a tight space with lots of players, I'm gonna have to be really good at protecting the ball, keeping the ball under pressure, but also have to be really good at some of my movement skills in tighter spaces. Likewise, if Jamie, you highlighted like the ball in behind and having to chase after it, if you did a pitch, which is quite narrow and long, well the space is probably going to be behind the defenders and goalkeeper. So then if you start to, the ball starts getting kicked along, and I'm not saying I'm an advocate of long ball football, but if you then give players an opportunity to play into spaces they're going to have to turn and chase after the ball. So certainly think about step space, adapt the space and give the players a variety of spaces to play in. Players, different numbers of players in different spaces also has an impact. Then you can think about the tasks that you give players. So for example, it could be, once you've scored a goal, you have to run around the goal before you go back onto the pitch. Now that will create an overload or under load, potentially in the favour of one of the teams, but somebody is gonna have to run around like on an arc. So you have to go around a pitch. So in terms of running around at an angle on an arc, that would develop that sort of skill if you like. You might also do something where whoever scores has to take somebody else off the pitch and play like a little 1v1 game for one minute and if your team win, the goal gets wiped off or you get another goal added on for example. So you're playing a 1v1 after a goal scored on a bigger pitch. So there's things that you could do in training to change the task or the tasks that you give the players, but then also think about the spaces and think about the number of players that operate in any given space.

[Louise]

Yeah, really useful things. And I guess when you're planning your sessions it's like think about those things that you might want to improve for some people and challenge people on.

[Lee]

Yeah, absolutely and again the other thing I mean I'm quite big on is doing like a mirrored practice or a parallel practice so do two of the same things alongside each other. So if you have 10 players at training you could play a 3v3 on one pitch and a 2v2 on the other pitch and the pitches might be different. Same activity that you're giving the players it's just a different number on both pitches and you could have the pitches slightly different size and that will develop different movement skills as well as some of the technical skills as well. But certainly, yeah, simple things like that will have a big difference long-term.

[Louise]

Do movement skills players need depend on the age and stage that they're at and even the position that they play?

[Lee]

So in terms of the age and stage that they're at, I think movement skills are movement skills. Like if you're really good at moving to the flight and trajectory of a ball, you're going to be more effective at playing the game. So yeah, something I would say is, yeah, if you're a good mover, you're a good mover, you're probably really good at playing the game of football. Now there's some technical skills that associate with it, whether attacking or defending, so you might be a really good proficient mover in terms of agility, balance and coordination with the ball at your feet and you're a really good dribbler, but then you might not be great in terms of some strength coupled with those movement skills. So we talk about Lionel Messi as an example that you can resonate with, in terms of his strength alongside his movement skills and his technical skills has a really big impact. So yeah, in terms of the age and stage and the importance of it, I wouldn't necessarily put a specific importance for grassroots coaches to say, look, this is really important to say, you know, at five years old, you should be doing X, Y and Z. It's looking at the players in front of you. What skills have they got to move effectively and what might you do to support them develop as they go along? So I wouldn't necessarily pigeonhole that into, again, a specific age. And that's a personal opinion.

[Louise]

And how about with the positions that they're playing? Are there some positions that need more things than others?

[Lee]

Yeah, so I think, again, coaches, you start to think, and you could watch games of football, like different positions potentially require different physical skills. So yes, if you look at a central midfield player in an 11-a-side match, they've probably got to do lots of dodging, weaving, twisting, turning to press and receive the ball. So they might have different movement skills, for example, to a striker who might need bursts of energy to get in front of a defender. Now I'm not suggesting those movement skills are going to be completely different because they're both going to have to be very similar but the game and the context that the game is played in, the position that you play might depend on those movement skills. So for example it could be a fullback. If I look at somebody like Ashley Cole, I think he was fantastic at some of his movement skills to mirror the stride patterns of players that he was up against. There's loads of clips online of Ashley Cole versus Cristiano Ronaldo when they were both in their heyday, so to speak. So, you might have to match the stride pattern of an attacker. So to be able to mirror those stride patterns, to be able to block across or to challenge effectively, that's going to be important to certain positions. Whereas if you are a striker, for example, when you look at somebody like Harry Kane, he doesn't necessarily press really aggressively all the time, but arcing your run, and I mentioned that, arcing a bit of a run so it's like in a semicircle, so to speak, to send the ball in a certain direction needs to be doing that effectively. So there's different things associated with different positions in and out of possession of the game and like I said I wouldn't necessarily pigeonhole a player into a position at the youngest age group but as they start to kind of become to teenage and certainly the later end of their teenage years when they start to figure out like the positions that they they enjoy most the positions where they can affect the game most, that's when in training sessions I might start to put more positional type of practices on because the movement skills associated with those positions are going to help them in the game and that's a little bit, I guess the refinement as well as development elements of specific positions.

[Jamie]

Would you say then, younger age groups in particular, like it's quite worthwhile, and you might not do like position specific sort of practices but obviously when you're playing the game, for instance, whether it's in training or a match day, just kind of rotating positions to give them a bit of an experience of rather it being twisting and turning, arcing the runs, playing in tight spaces if you're on the wing more likely than obviously being as a centre-back for instance.

[Lee]

Absolutely, and again, we talk about equal game time. I like to call it fair game time for players. But I think when we start to dig a little bit deeper into that, that could be around positions that they play and the movement skills associated with different positions. And that's really tough on coaches. You want to win games. Mums and dads want to win games. The kids want to win games. But I think if you start to think about long-term, the benefits of a young person playing in a central midfield area for a longer period of the game, that's gonna be different than if you play as a goalkeeper for a longer period of the game. So you might like rotate positions, for example, but if you're a goalkeeper, the movement skills associated with a goalkeeper are far different from a midfield player. So absolutely, yes, giving equal fair game time, however you want to phrase it as a coach, is really important. But I think to deepen the thought process, not just on equal playing time, but think about the positions that you put the players in, again not from a technical perspective specifically, but think about some of the movement skills that they would develop in certain areas of the pitch. And I'll give you a little story, it's quite a sad one to be fair, don't get the violins out and there's no tears about it, but I was working with a coach several years ago And the words of the coach were, this young person, he doesn't play as much as the other kids because he really struggles to last 90 minutes. And I was like, surely you want him to play more than the other kids so he can last a similar amount of time to them. So the coach essentially was giving him, who he would term a player who didn't have effective movement skills, stamina wasn't great either, he wasn't giving that young boy as much game time, well long term that's going to have a hugely detrimental effect on that person, but also the team as well because they were playing 7v7 at the time. What about when they go to 9-a-side, 11-a-side in terms of the players all being able to perform a more similar level and what was happening was the players were going to get much better and he was going to stagnate slightly And that's one story. Another story, he really likes playing in goal, but in terms of him developing his movement skills, he probably gets more game time than some of the other kids, but more game time in goal. Well, that has an impact upon his movement skills because he doesn't get to practice his movement skills or technical skills as much as the other kids but certainly when you talk about game time, equal games and fair game time it's not just about the minutes that they play it's about the positions and the minutes that they play to develop technical skills but also some really effective movement skills.

[Jamie]

I suppose that's why it's so important in training like to have like small sided games isn't it like more touches of the ball more repetition of key skills and core moves and things like that?

[Lee]

Absolutely and I talk about smiles on faces and the players want to dodge and weave and twist and turn to stop the opposition doing something or to do something themselves as a team to be able to score goals. So those movement skills associate with football, football specific movements, coupled with the locomotive skills as well as the fundamental movement skills, yes, small-sided games will provide players with support to be able to apply some of those movements. And the kids are asking for it, they're giving us a clue, when are we gonna play a match, when are we gonna play a game, like that's their hobby, that's what goes back to what I said at the start, put smiles on faces but also it supports some of their movement skills.

[Jamie]

How do you potentially make movement training like fun and engaging especially for young players or do you focus like go into a session saying it's going to be a movement skills type session or is it just there's a bit of a not a coincidence but it's just sort of like a return that you're getting from a practice that you're putting on anyway?

[Lee]

I would always add an element of tag into my practice, especially the youngest age group of players, but also into the teenage years as well. And even adults, I would always have an element of tag in my sessions where possible. Now that tag game could be dictated by the players, it might be dictated by the coach, but stuck in the mud, bulldogs, whatever that might be, all those sort of games I would have as a fundamental part of my training sessions, whether that be refining some skills or developing some skills. One, because as I'm saying, movement skills, it helps. Secondly, the kids love it. And that's an effective one. A bit different to running back and forth across the pitch, standing still, some static stretches. And I'm not suggesting we get rid of it, static stretches. And that's maybe for another podcast another day. But Certainly when we talk about movement skills, being able to provide opportunities to dodge and weave and twist and turn will be an integral part of my session. And I'll go back to a clip that was online when Gareth Southgate was the men's manager of the England team. They did like a tag game with like a rubber chicken. There was elements in the most senior environment you can have of playing tag type games as part of a warm-up. One, because it was fun, but secondly, it linked to some movement skills and some warm-up type activities. So yeah, I would be a huge advocate of playing tag type games as part of my sessions as a grassroots coach.

[Jamie]

I would have rather that as a kid than my kids always made me do like three four laps of a pitch just to warm up or something. That game sounds a hell of a lot better.

[Lee]

Yeah I've always said that if you want kids to be good 400 meter runners tell them to do laps around the pitch. If you want them to be good movers, give them activities where they're going to have to do movement skills associated with the game.

[Louise]

Are there any kind of things that you can give players or tell coaches to give players little tasks that they can do outside of practice that can help them kind of develop some of these things as well.

[Lee]

Yeah that could be going and buying some bubbles and doing the bubble pop activity. No, look, I'm all for kids being kids and I think to start setting physical tasks at home probably takes away from that a little bit. Now there will be some kids whose parents or even you as coaches do things purposefully with their children to develop their movement skills or take them to the park for a kick around or a kick around the garden, whatever it might be. So there are things that people would do that are quite purposeful with it. I'm not a huge fan of giving kids some tasks associated with movement skills. Like taking them to a park where they can play on a playground that's got loads of play equipment on it and different types of play things like that. Get their mates around and get them in the garden playing tag and figuring out their the games that they like to play. Like, buy some bubbles, that's gonna be the flavour of this, isn't it? Everybody's gonna go out and buy bubbles. But do those little things. Go and build a den where you have to crouch down and some of those things. So, yeah, I'm not a huge fan of trying to give people tasks away from training when it is a hobby. Like what's your hobby? I want to play football. Okay, well, you've got to do some press ups, you've got to do some squats, or you've got to do some whatever it might be. So let kids be kids, take them to soft play. If you've got a soft play thing, let them run around, let off energy, take them to your local park, get them to play tag with their friends, all the things that kids love doing. If you give them things that they love doing, where they have to move and practice some movement skills, that will be, I'm a big advocate of experiences and opportunities in different environments, doing different things where they're going to have to have to move.

[Louise]

And I guess it's just that moving really is really important just for kids generally. That, like you say, gives them more experiences. And if they're not thinking about what they're doing, they're probably trying lots of different things anyway.

[Lee]

Yeah, they are. And I think we also need to recognise that for different parents and people, and coaches, time is precious, people work and things, so there's me saying take them to the park, that's not always possible, the climate we live in in the winter, really difficult with the light, so that's really difficult and I'm not under any illusions as to that could be quite tough for people because of people's personal circumstances. But when there's an opportunity to, yeah, get them to climb a tree or whatever in the local like country park or yeah get them in the little court in the middle of your city centre having a game of five a side or whatever that that might be. So yeah, think about things where they're going to have to move when you have an opportunity to get them to do it.

[Jamie]

Something I think you mentioned earlier was actually like playing different sports, like how can you kind of just provide us with a few examples of how different sports can help develop movement skills?

[Lee]

Yeah, so if you think about football, what we would term football as an invasion game, you have to invade the opposition space. So the other sports like basketball, like netball, like hockey, those sort of things are invasion games where you have to invade the other, the other team space. So if there's young people that are playing a variety of those sports, one they're going to get an understanding of some attacking and defending principles to play the game but secondly they'll be taking part in different movement skills as an example. So I would expect players who play football as well as some of those other sports to have some reasonably effective movement skills. And again, coaches, you can have a little think about the players and what they do away from their training sessions. You've then got things like net wall games. That could be like tennis or squash or badminton. So being able to adjust your body to the flight of a ball to hit it back across the net. Think about football and being able to adjust your body to the flight of a ball to hit it back across the net. Think about football and being able to adjust your body to the flight of a ball, the speed of the ball, that would link again to kind of coordinating your movements based on a ball moving in your direction and the direction the ball is travelling. So that gives you a couple of other examples. You've then got things like striking games, the field is striking, like cricket as an example. So the coordination to be able to strike the ball at the right moment, like kicking the ball for example. You've then got to feel, so you've got to judge where the ball has gone to run after it in cricket. So those sort of things in different types of sports can have a really positive effect on how they might move to play football. You've then got things like health and fitness, so if they're good at like running they go to park run or something along those lines. Or they go swimming. So more, I guess I would say more individual activities or individual sports, they would also have an effect in terms of coordinating some of your movement skills. So we spoke about locomotive movement skills, you're swimming, for example, a certain , or you're running, park run, for example. So yeah, there's gonna be other activities and sports that young people do that will have an impact. So yes, it is really important to give them a, I guess I talk about volume and variety, like a volume of different things, a variety of different things to take part in, which yeah, has a really positive impact on their movements.

[Louise]

So we've talked a lot about training, but is there anything that can be done on a matchday specifically?

[Lee]

Yeah, so we've mentioned already around the positions and I guess you've also got the time spent in a position. I've seen it where players just get bought on and off and they can't figure out the position they're playing with and they're just kind of running around going, oh where am I meant to play? So I would say first of all think about how long somebody spends in a certain position as opposed to just chopping them changing in between different positions all the time. So that's that's the first thing. I think we can also look at our pre-match activities. I think the classic one that I see all the time is the players are running back and forth across the pitch standing still doing some stretches. Everybody stands in a circle and there's two kids or two people in a circle. There's 10 around the outside and there's two that are just running around after a ball. That's the classic warm-up and coaches that might resonate with you and you may do that. I'm not trying to criticise anybody. What I'm suggesting is I think there's an opportunity to play some tag-type games as part of your warm-up. So if you are doing a warm-up, running back and forth across the pitch isn't something that the players are going to have to do in a game. So how could you make that a little bit more specific to the demands physically of a game? So playing some tag-type games will be more effective, I would suggest. When it comes to like little circle work and rondos people would call them, and a load of people around the outside and two in the middle. I would suggest to play like a little small sided game with like a couple of target players at each end. So rather than goals have a player at each end who's a target to score from. A little mini pitch and two teams on the pitch where they've got to receive it and play it into their target player, that would develop, yes, some technical skills associated with the game that they're about to play, but also more effective movement skills for all of the players, rather than a group of them standing around and a couple in the middle and a half of the ball. So Certainly, yeah, training, we can talk about match days, as we've alluded to, positions, how long they spend in different positions as an effect of movement skills, but then also your pre-match activities to do some tag-type games and also some football-specific activities which will link to movement skills and what they're gonna do in the game. The last element I would say to match days will be your substitutes. Like your substitutes, if they're standing on the side of the pitch, they're not moving. So if you've got two substitutes and the opposition have got two substitutes, is there an opportunity to play a 3v3 game, even for five minutes on the side, a 3v2 game on the side for five minutes. Just set up a little small pitch with a couple of little mini goals if you can get so many goals or put cones down, but give the players an activity to do. Yes, they'll also stay warm, ready to come on when you're ready for them, but they'll be developing some technical skills and they'll develop some movement skills. And you know what? They'll be working with the other players, developing some social skills potentially and having conversations with them as well. So yeah, things that you do with the players on the side of the pitch, working with the other team, even if you don't work with the other team, like if there's two or three coaches on the side of the pitch and you're just watching the game, we're probably neglecting some of the substitutes on there. So could one of the coaches be doing something with one of the players, one of the substitutes to help them develop some technical movement skills, whatever they might be before they go on the pitch, as opposed to three coaches having to watch the same match. So I think there's some things that we could do on matchday to really support the players as well.

[Jamie]

Now, looking back at everything that we've discussed, and we've kind of discussed quite a lot in the time that we've had so far, can you kind of summarise the key top tips that you want coaches to take away from this episode?

[Lee]

I think my top tip would be to give them tag games in training because that's going to help them develop some of the movement skills. So that would be my number one top tip. The second one would be to give them different spaces and number of players in different spaces during training sessions and the third one would be just consider match days in relation to physical movement so when we go into match days it's quite often we think about the starting lineup and who's going to who's going to score the goals and how we're going to manage the substitutions. So how can we think about some of the movement skills, especially the youngest age group of players, that they will develop by playing in different positions and have that long-term aim in place. So yeah, three things, tag-type games, essential for me. The second one is the space that you have and the number of players that operate in a space and maybe just deepen the considerations around match days and the physical movement skills that the players may or may not get by what you give them on a match day.

[Louise]

And if we were to set the coaches and listeners a challenge to kind of bring movement skills more to the forefront of their sessions, what would you set them to do as a like a little challenge to do?

[Lee]

I would write down five different types of movement skills that your players would develop from the training session. So every time I'm like I know some people are on the way to training now, you're probably thinking, what am I going to do? But if you were to think about five different types of movements that you want your players to apply during a training session, write those five things down and make sure that your practices or whatever you do, give them an opportunity to do it.

[Jamie]

Right, well we're coming up to the end of the show now Lee, but it does mean it is time for our Swift Session feature.

[Louise]

Yep, so another challenge for you and another 30 seconds on the clock. We're going to ask you to explain to us a session idea in those 30 seconds. Are you up for that?

[Lee]

I can if it lasts more than 30 seconds can you give me 45?

[Louise]

We'll see how we go with the 30 seconds.

[Lee]

Maybe 30 seconds with the music and then a bit without the music.

[Louise]

Okay when the music starts you can begin.

[Lee]

So you've got a five a side pitch you've got a penalty area you're playing Bulldogs The players have got to get from one penalty area to the other as many times as they can, and then the bulldogs in the middle if they tag them their points are wiped to zero, but they carry on playing. So bulldogs ratio of about 1 to 3 in terms of one bulldog to every three players get from one penalty area to the other as many times as you possibly can and you carry on going as long as you can. Points are wiped to zero every time you get tagged. If you accumulate the most points you're the winner. That's not bad.

[Louise]

That is perfect. That is very good.

[Lee]

That's 30 seconds. That's a little practice.

[Louise]

Yeah. It was under 30 seconds, I have to say.

[Louise]

Yeah, I was about to say. The whistle went a little bit after you'd finished.

[Jamie]

Yeah, to say that you were worried that you'd need 45 seconds...

[Lee]

Can I have 15 to say what we'll do to develop it? Yeah, go ahead. So if you did that for like a minute and a half, then a ratio of one to three, you have your next group in and they play, do the tagging, the next group in and they do the tagging and there's like five minutes worth. The next part is if you introduce a football and play all over again, that's like a good 10 minutes worth. Plus all the changeover times, there's probably 50 minutes of a warmup at the same time. If you've got footballs in, dribble from one penalty area to the other, the players in the middle have got a ball each, and they also have to tag to wipe the scores back to zero again. So that's the introduction to footballs, and that's a good 15 minutes of a session if you rotate every three times.

[Louise]

Brilliant, Thank you for that. Yeah, there

[Jamie]

you go coaches. If you're on the way to training right now or planning for it very, very soon, then yeah, add that to the start and see how it goes. Very good idea. Well, thank you very much for your time today, Lee. We've absolutely flown through it today, but there's been so much really good top tips in there for everybody to take away. We've really enjoyed listening to you so thank you very much for coming on. Hopefully you've enjoyed it as well.

[Lee]

Yeah thank you for having me and hopefully there's some useful ideas for people to apply to their training sessions.

[Louise]

I'm sure there definitely will be.

[Jamie]

Yeah plenty, plenty. Right well that is all we do have time for today, but don't forget to check out the description for the transcription of this episode and for all the links to our platforms. There you'll be able to click through to the England Football Community and this is where you can post all your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast or just simply to connect with loads of wonderful coaches.

[Louise]

Yep, we'd love to help you out with your coaching questions, so please do check it out. We'll be back soon with another episode of Coachcast, so if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode. From all of us at England Football Learning, thanks for listening.